[koldnet]

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

I know it's been discussed before, and I'm just wondering what is to be learned from this? I mean we all "know" that the old masters were unbeatable, but maybe it's because their competition was like that? How serious are we supposed to take this? And if this is what we strive for then do you think it's worth it? Just some musings. Merry Christmas y'all!

brian

[Ron Panunto]

Not seriously at all, as I recall, it was only an exhibition match for charity.

[koldnet]

even exhibition matches look like...well fights. Maybe it's the camera but it looks less than stellar. Plus, one of the guys eventually bled and that's why the fight was stopped. Seemed to be more competitive than a friendly match for charity. I know this is a sore spot for us in CMA but I think it is still an issue that needs to be addressed.

brian

[Enrique]

Excuses excuses... Niggas sucked plain and simple.

[koldnet]

Is it because they just sucked or because their training style resulted in this? I mean they were "masters" and the Wu taiji guy was related to the creator of the style, and therefore there is little reason to believe he wasn't taught the so called good stuff (i may be wrong here). I guess the question is, should we be trying to emulate how the old-timers trained, or should we try to evolve the art? Maybe the old time masters were good because they got their sparring practice in street matches and brawls. Maybe they did have sparring, but then why did these two turn out like this? Just pondering...

brian

This post has been edited by koldnet: 25 December 2007 - 11:27 PM

[Enrique]

Maybe both there style and they sucked? I don't know all I'm sayin is these niggas suck.

[cerebus]

The reason it looked as it did was actually very simple. Both individuals were quite skilled at their particular arts, at their forms, training methods, etc. BUT neither one had any extensive training in sparring with hard contact. Chan Hak Fu had a little bit of training in boxing, but Wu Gong Yee had no sparring training at all prior to this match.

Until someone has put on whatever protective gear they intend to use and actually gets out there on a REGULAR basis and spars with an opponent who is trying to knock them on their ass, they will never be properly prepared for such a thing.

One of the things many people comment on in this clip is that, even though Chan Hak Fu had some training in western boxing, he was still "windmilling". That, however, is one of the few things in this vid I do NOT have a problem with.... for a very specific reason. That reason being that I have watched Tibetan White Crane people practicing and they actually were TRAINING that technique. In the northern Mantis/ Shaolin I learned from the Korean lineage of Shin Dae Woung, we actually have a form which trains this "windmill hammerfist" technique, AND also a 2-person fighting set which uses it. If it's used by someone who trains it correctly it can be difficult to defend against.

But, other than that, yeah, neither of them had much sparring practice. That's the answer...

[YouKnowWho]

At 5.59 Chen kicked and Wu kicked back right away at 6.00. Wu just wanted to prove that "If you can kick, I can kick too". Wu just fell into his opponent's pattern and fought his opponent's fight without notice. The better strategy will be for him to wait for the right chance and finish the fight quickly. All the other time, he should be patient and conserve energy.

If we don't spend our training time on "finish moves" then we will all fight like this - all landing punches and kicks are just wasting energy and not enough to cause any damage.

What I have seen from another master's fight used different strategy than this. This master attacked by a sequence of kicking. When his opponent moved back and his back was against the wall and have no place to retreat, his opponent delivered the first punch, this master caught that punch, spun his body and the fight was over. Everything was under his plan and this master fought the fight exactly as he intended to fight.

This post has been edited by YouKnowWho: 25 December 2007 - 11:55 PM

[koldnet]

So how did the old legendary masters become such great fighters without sparring? Was it because they constantly fought ANYWAYS? Therefore what would be a good way to synthesize this old training method with the protective gear we have? I guess my question is how does form training and PH training (in tjq) work with sparring? What is the form supposed to teach you and how do you apply that in sparring? (not one step forms)
and to YouKnowWho:
I think banking on a finished move in a fight is risky, especially with adrenaline pumping, people can take multiple hits. Sparring helps develop timing and endurance so that you can land those multiple hits and hopefully evade the ones intended for you.

brian

[cerebus]

There are actually many training drills which can help alot in developing fighting reflexes without sparring, but actually some of the old masters DID spar. Unfortunately, because of a lack of protective gear, students would often get injured. Some Hsing-I instructors were KNOWN for injuring, even killing, students in training.

One of the reasons Hsing-I was so effective in the old Nanjing tournaments was that it is very simple and very strightforward, and if someone trains the five-elements 2-person drills constantly they will develop at least SOME level of competent fighting reactions, even if their instructors don't use sparring as a training tool.

Other than that, legends are often overinflated hype. The reason a trained person beats an untrained person is simply because they at least have SOME level of training in dealing with an attacking opponent, this is better than NO training. Against an untrained attacker, sparring skill isn't always neccesary (though it WILL always help). If one person who trains in traditional kung fu fights another similarly trained person and neither of them spars on a regular basis, it's a toss-up who will win. But if one of them trains sparring regularly, well then I'm betting my money on him (and I'm not even a gambling man..).

[YouKnowWho]

It's better to conserve energy and wait for the right time to finish the fight ASAP instead of "playing" with our opponent. The worse thing could happen to us will be that we have spent all our energy on "none finish moves" and don't have any energy left for our "finish moves".

This post has been edited by YouKnowWho: 26 December 2007 - 12:20 AM

[koldnet]

Then I guess my question is, why train IMA? It seems that you believe it provides inferior self-defence training than martial arts that constantly spar like boxing. Or should we train in a way which we mostly spar and do forms as a kind of shadow boxing? But then how does the end result differ from western boxing? Or should it all end up in the same place?

YouKnowWho:
But how will you know the "right time" unless you spar? One of the greatest things you learn in sparring is timing. Knowing WHEN and WHERE the opponent is open is something you can learn only through sparring, or else how would you know when that right time is?

brian

[YouKnowWho]

spars on a regular basis,

Old Chinese saying said, "If you don't spar for 3 days then your arms and legs are no longer be yours." That's what "regular" means.

But how will you know the "right time" unless you spar?

Sparring is a must and there is no question about that. We can have different mind set during sparring. Most of the time, we just "play" and not serious enough. Sometime we may not have enough "finish intention" and that usually build up bad habit for us.

This post has been edited by YouKnowWho: 26 December 2007 - 12:32 AM

[koldnet]

So then how would an effective training schedule look like? How much time would be spent on sparring, and how much time on forms? And most importantly, how would you integrate and reconcile the movements of the form with the chaotic nature of sparring?

brian

[YouKnowWho]

Sparring 15 rounds a day none stop should be the right amount.

I think the priority should be:

1. spar/wrestle
2. 2 men drill
3. equipment training
4. 1 man drill
5. form

Where 1 should be the highest priority and 5 should be the lowest priority.

This post has been edited by YouKnowWho: 26 December 2007 - 12:37 AM

[koldnet]

That's interesting...as most teachers put form as the most important thing to train. Then how would you manifest your form into your sparring then? Like how would your sparring style look different than say TKD or boxing? Isn't that the point of the form? To teach you the body-philosophies of your art?

brian

[YouKnowWho]

The form is "dead" but our body are "alive". How can we allow the "death" to control the "living"? If we always believe in books then it's better that there is no books at all. We don't want the books to be our master. We want to be the master of our books.

If there is something that we like in the book, take it out and use it. If there is something in the book that we don't like, throw it away and forget about it. If we find something in the other book that we like, take it out and use it. Who said that we can only allow to read 1 book in our life time?

A book may contain pattern such as "If I had had ... I would have had ...". We may use this pattern to build many sentences and that's the purpose of that book (form).

This post has been edited by YouKnowWho: 26 December 2007 - 04:52 AM

[toybox]

That's interesting...as most teachers put form as the most important thing to train

forms training is most important in first few years, as to develope specific characteristics, later, no form is really needed as the energy and attrributes are understood and developed.
continuing practice them will not do harm, but in the advanced stage, the sparring is most important.

same in boxing, first and foremost is shadow boxing, etc, forms have their place, especially for developing characteristics of a style.

[koldnet]

then how do you get the most out of the forms in order to be able to spar faster? This is getting really interesting!

brian

[DeusTrismegistus]

then how do you get the most out of the forms in order to be able to spar faster? This is getting really interesting!

brian

If you cant do your forms fast then how can you spar fast? Sparring fast and at high contact boils down to one thing, relaxation. If you aren't relaxed you tense and then you won't react quickly and you will tire quickly. If you aren't relaxed then you won't be able to see clearly. Which if you lack clear vision you will not be able to be precise in your movements. It is easy to do a form and move quickly but it is much harder to do it quickly while remaining balanced, focused, and being aware of every detail of your movement.

Forms IMO first teach you specific techniques and how to use your body. Then it is up to the student to take what they learn in tehir forms and use it sparring. Many never try to use anything more involved than some basic punches and kicks. Ridge hands can work very well, so can tiger claws, foot stomps, palm strikes, and elbow blocking. However you have to use these techniques. That means just going out, picking a simple punch or kick from your form and trying it. Then you will begtin to see how to make combos and sometimes mimic small segments of a form. Its up to the student though, most teachers aren't going to sit over you when you spar and tell you to try to use a specific move from a specific form.