[CaliG]

OldTyger mentioned this on the "1953 Fight" thread so I decided to check it out.



Does anyone know the story behind this?

[cerebus]

William Cheung claimed in a magazine article to be the best Wing Chun fighter in the world and said he'd prove it anytime, anywhere. He was doing a seminar in Germany when Emin Boztepe, as instructed by Leung Ting, approached him, challenged him and then attacked him. They went to the floor and thrashed around for a few seconds then Boztepe & his boys left. The End.

[Finny]

What Troy said.

Bear in mind that Cheung would've been near 60 at the time, Emin was in his early/mid twenties I think.

Emin later claimed he did it reluctantly on the orders of LT and Keith Kernspect (LT's top guy in Germany, Emin's Sifu at the time)

Cheung claimed to have slipped, wearing plastic soled slippers on hardwood floor, that's understandable

Cheung's camp also claimed that clip is heavily edited - you don't see the opening part of the engagement, nor the dozen Emin cronies surrounding Cheung etc. etc.

Either way, a sad day for WC.

[Bobbe Edmonds]

I remember this, and to this day I find it to be a moot point. It doesn't PROVE anything. A bigger, younger guy challenged an older one. It didn't change anything.

I have met Cheung, he struck me as an arrogant ass. To say that he was a bit full of himself is an understatement, but this was almost 15 years ago. Maybe longer.

Emin, I have always regarded as a tough thug at best. It doesn't speak much for Wing Chun (sorry, "Ving Tsun") that he's in it, you could put him in Tai Chi and he would be known as the man who slammed Chen Man Ching.

People go on and on about style, systems, and how they are effective or not depending on a single representative. Which is synonymous with saying "Airplanes can crash, so flight is worthless. You never see a chuck wagon falling out of the sky." You want a true "style" challenge? Find someone of the same height/weight ratio, same age and same skill (or at least, years in training). Make the environment and conditions as close to even as humanly possible. And after it's all over, the only thing your going to prove is validity of two people on the day they fought. The next day might be a different story altogether.

A fight is a fight. Trying to say that styles can be proven or disproved is like arguing about the existence of God. Just because everybody doesn't agree doesn't mean it's not valid.

[AndrewS]

http://en.wikipedia..../William_Cheung

William Cheung was in his 40s when the Cologne thing happened. He was born in 1940. He issued an open challenge, in print. That kinda made him fair game.

Bobbe,

what's your beef with Emin? As one of his students I understand he can rub people the wrong way, though he's usually quite charming. He's an excellent exponent of Wing Chun, has been cross training and testing what he does against good fighters from other arts for decades, is an excellent teacher, and encourages his students to cross-train and respect other arts.

Andrew

[toybox]

bobbe- cheung and leung ting have the biggest, richest kung fu businesses in the world, the whole thing really comes down to money in my opinion.

cheung and ting should have had at it, not emin, in my opinion.

its so old hat though, both systems are great,

This post has been edited by toybox: 05 March 2008 - 07:54 PM

[Andrew H]

I remember this, and to this day I find it to be a moot point. It doesn't PROVE anything. A bigger, younger guy challenged an older one. It didn't change anything.

It proves one thing, that, as usual most fights will end up on the ground. Even when both fighters are representing a style that has no ground fighting.

[toybox]

It proves one thing, that, as usual most fights will end up on the ground. Even when both fighters are representing a style that has no ground fighting.

the fight didnt "end up on the ground" the fight was purposely taken to the ground,wing chun has many throws, and all styles have this type of ground fighting, holdin someone and punchin him,

[wuji]

It proves one thing, that, as usual most fights will end up on the ground. Even when both fighters are representing a style that has no ground fighting.

No it doesn't.

[Saj]

Bear in mind that Cheung would've been near 60 at the time, Emin was in his early/mid twenties I think.

That's exactly what Cheung should have bear in mind before saying he was the greatest WC fighter alive

[shawnsegler]

It's been awhile so I may be a little rusty...but...WAAAATTTTAAHHHHHH!!!!!!

[Andrew H]

the fight didnt "end up on the ground" the fight was purposely taken to the ground,wing chun has many throws, and all styles have this type of ground fighting, holdin someone and punchin him,

Yes the fight did end up on the ground (the ground is what both fighters were laying on). Wing Chun has very few throws (take a look in any WC instructional book), and very few styles have any type of practical ground fighting training at all. Wing Chun being a good example.

Show me one legitimate example of "Wing Chun Ground Fighting" prior to the first UFC, and I'll buy you a pie.

This post has been edited by Andrew H: 05 March 2008 - 11:56 PM

[Andrew H]

No it doesn't.

Yes, unfortunately for lethal stand up street fighting kung fu experts, it does.

If you have no experience with real fights, browse a few on Youtube, or look up law enforcement statistics.

[Finny]

It's been awhile so I may be a little rusty...but...WAAAATTTTAAHHHHHH!!!!!!

It certainly has been a while - if only now Asura would show up and you could throw up that pic of him and Zac on the back of their motorbike on the way to thunderdome, the circle of life would be complete.

The old "most fights go to the ground" argument is so fucking lame it's not funny.

Law enforcement stats are stats of arrests/restraints, no? LEO's deliberately take subjects to the ground, giving them and their fellow officers time to immobilise them, and gang up on them.

I personally don't believe the whole "every real fight goes to the ground" tale. Sure, ground awareness is great, but MOST real fights I've seen have been striking fights that have been decided/ended with strikes.

The only real fights I can remember going to the ground were when I was a kid, seeing other kids brawling, and once as a youngster, seeing a BJJ guy who outweighed his opponent by a good 50 kilos bear hugged the kid to the ground and choked him out in a pathetic display of bullying.

Your experience may vary - but I'm not lying - most every fight I've seen has involved dudes slugging it out, not brawling to a clinch then falling on the floor.

[Andrew H]

It certainly has been a while - if only now Asura would show up and you could throw up that pic of him and Zac on the back of their motorbike on the way to thunderdome, the circle of life would be complete.

The old "most fights go to the ground" argument is so fucking lame it's not funny.

Law enforcement stats are stats of arrests/restraints, no? LEO's deliberately take subjects to the ground, giving them and their fellow officers time to immobilise them, and gang up on them.

I personally don't believe the whole "every real fight goes to the ground" tale. Sure, ground awareness is great, but MOST real fights I've seen have been striking fights that have been decided/ended with strikes.

The only real fights I can remember going to the ground were when I was a kid, seeing other kids brawling, and once as a youngster, seeing a BJJ guy who outweighed his opponent by a good 50 kilos bear hugged the kid to the ground and choked him out in a pathetic display of bullying.

Your experience may vary - but I'm not lying - most every fight I've seen has involved dudes slugging it out, not brawling to a clinch then falling on the floor.

Yes, the old "most fights go to the ground" argument (actually, it's not an argument, it's what happens in reality) isn't funny. It's true. Denial is funny.

The law enforcement stats I'm referring to are not LEO arrests stats, they are the statistics of statements taken after brawls. More than half of all "street fights" end up with both combatants on the ground. And if you can't ground fight, you won't find that funny either.

This post has been edited by Andrew H: 06 March 2008 - 01:23 AM

[Finny]

Righto

I'd be interested to actually see these stats. But then most of the fights Ive seen haven't involved the police. some have, but most haven't

But I guess they must not have been real fights, being as how they didnt all go to the ground.

[toybox]

andrew h- wing chun has always had throws 2nd and third form are loaded with throws, and knee on belly is common to strike from in all arts, i could show you half guard, full guard from silat, even old pics of chinese kung fu as in cartmells book show full guard way before ufc was even a thought.

do non grappling arts have sophisticated rolling, submissions on the ground, i woulod say no.

More than half of all "street fights" end up with both combatants on the ground. And if you can't ground fight, you won't find that funny either.

so with all these stats, were these guys trained groundfighters? if not how did they survive? or are both combatants alwways choked out or armbarred? so they are all dead now

as for the stats of fights goin to the ground- its a bullshit theory. yes fights go to the ground when 2 unskilled guys fight, they played football growin up and watched professional wrestling, of course they tackle to avoid getting hit. i seen many a fights with a good striker involved vs joe scmoe street punk, 90 percent the striker ko'd the punk.

i8f fighting a grappler, yes fights will go to the ground,

i prefer the stat of 100 percent start standing,

makes you wonder how anyone survived a streetfight beofre bjj came onto the scene

[BillyK]

If you have no experience with real fights, browse a few on Youtube, or look up law enforcement statistics.

in germany, fights usually are fought standing, slugging it out with usually bad kickboxing and stand up grappling. though i have to admit that my last real fightw ent to the ground - because i beat the little shit to his knees and chocked him out.

so in essence, if you don`t want to go to the ground, you don't have to, but choking bitches out is hella fun, so i train it.

[Andrew H]

so with all these stats, were these guys trained groundfighters? if not how did they survive? or are both combatants alwways choked out or armbarred? so they are all dead now

makes you wonder how anyone survived a streetfight beofre bjj came onto the scene

In these stats, I doubt most of the combatants were trained ground fighters. How did they survive the ground fights? I'd imagine they survived the same way people survived stand up fights before they invented Kung Fu.