[wotien]

Ok, here's a question for those people who don't believe in chi (or don't believe that you need to worry about it):

How do you explain the abilities of men like Gene Choicoine, James McNeil and many others?

Mr Chicoine can smash incredible amounts of free standing concrete with a slap as shown here: http://www.usadojo.c...ne-chicoine.htm

Mr McNeil can shatter a stack of bricks cleanly with a slap as shown here: http://littleninehea...and_dvd_dp.html

He can also break brick with his finger! His fucking FINGER for god's sake!

How do fascia and other Western scientific explanations account for these abilities? We're talking about a finger here! How much can tendons and scientific vectors REALLY contribute here?

In this article, McNeil gives an explanation that definitely puts a lot of value on chi and understanding the cycles of chi and blood: http://littleninehea...1998/index.html

What about the other abilities of these men ... such as being able to make their hands swell and go red and hot just by thinking? Or slapping someone on the chest and then having a handmark appear on the back? How do you account for these things if you say chi isn't real or isn't important?

And for those people who think chi is just a metaphor or a "model" of the body processes and isn't a real force, please explain to me what it is that breaks that brick or what is protecting Mike Patterson from those hard sledgehammer blows.

(Before anyone starts, can we please refrain from any "Bricks don't hit back" crap on this thread. That isn't the point.)

This post has been edited by wotien: 10 March 2008 - 05:53 PM

[GrahamB]

Fascia

[Sprint]

Ok, here's a question for those people who don't believe in chi (or don't believe that you need to worry about it):

How do you explain the abilities of men like Gene Choicoine, James McNeil and many others?

Mr Chicoine can smash incredible amounts of free standing concrete with a slap as shown here: <a href="http://www.usadojo.com/biographies/gene-chicoine.htm" target="_blank">http://www.usadojo.com/biographies/gene-chicoine.htm</a>

Mr McNeil can shatter a stack of bricks cleanly with a slap as shown here: <a href="http://littlenineheaven.com/iron_hand_dvd_dp.html" target="_blank">http://littlenineheaven.com/iron_hand_dvd_dp.html</a>

He can also break brick with his finger! His fucking FINGER for god's sake!

How do fascia and other Western scientific explanations account for these abilities? We're talking about a finger here! How much can tendons and scientific vectors REALLY contribute here?

In this article, McNeil gives an explanation that definitely puts a lot of value on chi and understanding the cycles of chi and blood: http://littleninehea...1998/index.html

What about the other abilities of these men ... such as being able to make their hands swell and go red and hot just by thinking? Or slapping someone on the chest and then having a handmark appear on the back? How do you account for these things if you say chi isn't real or isn't important?

And for those people who think chi is just a metaphor or a "model" of the body processes and isn't a real force, please explain to me what it is that breaks that brick or what is protecting Mike Patterson from those hard sledgehammer blows.

(Before anyone starts, can we please refrain from any "Bricks don't hit back" crap on this thread. That isn't the point.)

That's quite funny. I guess you are being serious. No, sorry, I am laughing so much I fell of my seat.. Thanks... must be the power of chi.

[cerebus]

And for those people who think chi is just a metaphor or a "model" of the body processes and isn't a real force, please explain to me what it is that breaks that brick [/quote]

Mmmmm.... the hand that's hitting them? If it was all just "chi" breaking the bricks, why would the hand have to be involved at all? (Not saying anything against the existence of chi, just playing devil's advocate... ).

[Andrew H]

Apparently Wotien's high school didn't teach physics.

[gryphonz]

Physics? Blasphemy!

[wuji]

Explain it in the language of physics please.

[mix]

Explain how his qi broke the bricks?

Reverse onus anyone?

[wuji]

No, how the brick broke with a finger. I assume there's a trick to it, but what is it?

[I am]

The trick is training your hands, and the associated training that goes with it. The whole way this was presented, to put it bluntly(I am no wordsmith), illustrates the (likely) level of understanding the poster had of this topic. If you do the work, it all makes sense how it works. Then again, I think it was the consensus of most on this board that hand training is pointless anyway...

[mix]

Then again, I think it was the consensus of most on this board that hand training is pointless anyway...

Oh no you didn't....

[Tao Joannes]

Sure, bricks don't... but boards do!

That makes baby jeebus smile.

[SteveBonzak]

Wotien-

I think the question you should be asking is not how can you explain it without qi, but rather how is it possible to condition the body to deliver power like that without breaking? The answer is that the body can be conditioned to do remarkable things if you want to spend the time and energy.

-Steve

[MeMaiMuay]

I did Iron Palm very intensely for about 1-1.5 years a loooong time ago.

I was slap-breaking bricks fairly quickly, within about 5-6 months. My instructor could skip-break (ie, break the bottom brick only in a stack of 5-6 bricks with no spacers). In his opinion there is nothing magical about Iron Palm training or skills.

I personally think most of the guys who make a show of breaking and iron shirt stuff are frauds.

[Uatu the Watcher the Ed]

Well, before y'all gang up on wotien, let's just forget about qi for a moment and go through the list o' stuff and ruminate over whether fascia is a suitable explanation for these things or not.

1. Breaking bricks/concrete with a slap/finger - well, fascia could plausibly be key here (at the least, it can provide more power and structure for the breaks).
2. Making hands swell/hot by thinking - hmm, not quite sure... Might be more difficult? Unless very tiny fascia in the hands are also controllable?
3. Leaving handmarks through a body - not sure about this one, either (haven't seen it demonstrated myself, yet).

Then there are other weird things that people can do...

[fuga]

This past weekend one of my occasional push hands partners was telling a group of us about a fellow who he met who could make tomatoes explode. He would stack up three tomatoes, put one hand on top and then slap his top hand - apparently being able to make any one of the three tomatoes explode.

How could he do it?

I don't know. But making tomatoes explode. That's actually useful for things like salsa and marinara sauce.

-pete

[cerebus]

[Uatu the Watcher the Ed]

Implosion would be better in this case - then you could keep all those nice tomato juices and make sure they don't fly around... you could suck them out later!

[yun]

I don't know how they do those things. I don't believe it was qi though. Of course, I don't believe in qi.