[neijia_boxer]

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=fVJFE1OY988

[John Medurga]

In a demonstration such as this there must be to some degree a willingness on the part of the student.

That said, Mr. Zhu's power, skill and technique seem real. He has a very small center compared to that of his student. Looking closely one can see a small use of the waist is manifesting as a big action on the part of the student. He's definitely got something.

I liked it.

[ppscat]

Can you tell something more about Wong's lineage?

[John Medurga]

We just BTDT-ed this video.. there is another thread that it was roasted, thoroughly.

Well it seems like it's made its way back.

[Bao version 0.2]

Well it seems like it's made its way back.

It should have stayed were it belongs. It is always sad when a taiji practitioner acts like an aikido uke. That is really not necessary.

This post has been edited by Neverending Bao: 19 March 2008 - 08:47 PM

[steelincotton]

Very nice clip. Good TCC training.

[Lion]

Very nice clip. Good TCC training.

[Lay-Z]

Where is the BTDT thread?

[yun]

It didn't ever go to BTDT. The other thread is: http://www.emptyflow...?showtopic=3225

[John Medurga]

Just what is it that those of you gentlemen who don't care for this demonstraton dislike about it?

Perhaps because you never met someone who can do it? Perhaps because you haven't the skill to do it yourselves?

I only read part of the previous thread that was reported to be in the BTDT shitter and it seems that the people who don't think that it's a fake are ones who actually met and experienced guys who could do it.

Same old foolish mentality.

"I can't do it" or "I haven't met someone who could do it so it must be fake" Get over your self - centered, self important selves and realize that there are guys out there with skills that you haven't got.

Maybe some day if you humble yourselves and open up your minds someone might teach them to you.

[wuji]

Just what is it that those of you gentlemen who don't care for this demonstraton dislike about it?

Perhaps because you never met someone who can do it? Perhaps because you haven't the skill to do it yourselves?

I only read part of the previous thread that was reported to be in the BTDT shitter and it seems that the people who don't think that it's a fake are ones who actually met and experienced guys who could do it.

Same old foolish mentality.

"I can't do it" or "I haven't met someone who could do it so it must be fake" Get over your self - centered, self important selves and realize that there are guys out there with skills that you haven't got.

Maybe some day if you humble yourselves and open up your minds someone might teach them to you.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=5lvU-DislkI

[John Medurga]

Wuji if you can't tell the difference between the two videos then I'd advise you to give up your MA career now and save yourself a lot of time and money because you haven't learned anything.

[YouKnowWho]

When someone holds on your wrist and you just disconnect your up arm from you low arm by bending your elbow and then smash into your opponent's chest then none of these demo will even be possible. Body connection make sense in offense and may not make sense in defense. The wrist hold is good for set up. It's not a good "contact point" by definition.

This post has been edited by YouKnowWho: 20 March 2008 - 10:53 AM

[GrahamB]

When someone holds on your wrist and you just disconnect your up arm from you low arm by bending your elbow and then smash into your opponent's chest then none of these demo will even be possible. Body connection make sense in offense and may not make sense in defense. The wrist hold is good for set up. It's not a good "contact point" by definition.

That's very true - it requires co-operation from the student to work. It's a two person co-operation, not a fight. I thought it demonstrated a good control of the centre by the teacher though.

It looked more like Yi Quan body movement than Tai Chi though - anyone else think that? Or to put it another way, does anyone else think that Yi Quan body movement and Tai Chi body movement are different?

[John Medurga]

Yiquan body movement and taiji body movement are the same. Outer appearance is different but the mechanics are the same in all of the internal systems. Only the tactics are different.

Mr. Zhu is using a very small circle. His center only has to move just a tiny bit and the force comes out bigger at hands. Like the center of a bicycle wheel only turning slightly as compared to that of the outside edge of the tire. If the center where the spokes are attached move only a very slight distance at a very quick rate then the outer portion of the tire should have at least the same amount of force and perhaps more speed.

If one was to put a car on a lift in a way that the tires were parallel to the ground he could he could place his hand flat on the tread side of the tire. If it were possible to put the car in gear and depress the accelerator and then the brake fast enough so that the tire only rotated 1/100 of a complete revolution whoever was pushing on that tire would get thrown away as soon as the tire began its small but quick & powerful rotation.

The ability of an indivdual to do this depends on how good his silk reeling skill is and how good his ability to stay connected at a moment's instance with a load ( the opponent ) on him. Another factor is how long and hard he's cultivated intent (yi).

I experienced skill similar to this from Sam Tam in my hotel room after a workshop of his that I went to. He was able to do it to me with his hands, arms and different points on his body. And I was not stiff arming him. My own teacher demonstrates it occasionally in a not so nice way (quite explosive).

Still it is just a demonstration of a certain skill. Whether Mr. Zhu can use it in a fight is another story.

[GrahamB]

Yiquan body movement and taiji body movement are the same. Outer appearance is different but the mechanics are the same in all of the internal systems. Only the tactics are different.

Really? How do you know this to be true, or is it just your opinion? I guess that's a silly question. Everything on Ef is an opinion. But what I'm asking is, why are you convinced this is true?

This post has been edited by GrahamB: 20 March 2008 - 03:13 PM

[GrahamB]

A picture is worth a thousand words. So here's some pictures, moving ones at that.

I like the look of both of these, but it doesn't look to me like these two gentlemen are using the same body mechanics.

This post has been edited by GrahamB: 20 March 2008 - 03:12 PM

[yanbowen]

true skill? if anyone locks up their body and becomes tight you can push them off balance...... that does not require learning tai ji.

what we learn is reacting to the opponent and getting him in that situation even if he is unwilling. that is the trickier, and more important, part

seems to me this gentleman is just demonstrating some body mechanics.

This post has been edited by yanbowen: 20 March 2008 - 02:47 PM

[John Medurga]

Hello Graham,

They aren't going to look the same. One is doing a pre arranged medium frame taiji set and the other is doing a demonstration of jian wu for an audience which is supposed to be a free form expression of the sum total of yiquan training. One is doing a slow moving set and the other is moving about the floor at a quick pace so it stands to reason that they would look different. The same is what's going on that you can't readily see.

The classical writings on the internal systems all say the same things only using different words. Taiji, bagua, hsing yi, lhbf it doesn't matter. I'm saying this from experience as well as what my former and present teachers have drilled into me.

Look at the standard Yang taiji two handed peng & lu, bagua's single palm change and hsingyi's chopping / pi fist. They all rise, drill the arms and fall into the next position. Bagau uses a very large turning of the torso via the kua as the palm falls towards the center of the abstract circle one walks around. Taiji's rotation of the spine is less extravagant as peng turns into lu and in piquan the rotation of the center is even smaller but it is there nonetheless. The footwork & positioning is different but the mechanics are the same in the context of the forces that are being used and what's going on inside the body. The forms are a large expression of what an expert later condenses into very small movements.

The only true way to find out what's real and what's bullshit is to feel it for one's self. I speak from experience not speculation and I believe I've given an easy enough to understand explaination of what Mr. Zhu is doing and why he can do it. I don't care if his student is giving him a stiff arm or not. I know more than one individual who can do it without any help from a student as do others who have said as much. Since that's not good enough I can't see wasting any more effort trying to convince people who have no access to individuals with said skills.

John

[GrahamB]

Hello Graham,

They aren't going to look the same. One is doing a pre arranged medium frame taiji set and the other is doing a demonstration of jian wu for an audience which is supposed to be a free form expression of the sum total of yiquan training. One is doing a slow moving set and the other is moving about the floor at a quick pace so it stands to reason that they would look different. The same is what's going on that you can't readily see.

I take it you're saying they are the same 'internal' mechanics then. That's ok, that's your view, but I just don't see it myself - their centres of gravity look different, the way they move looks different, and the mechanics look different to me. I'm not talking about external things like who is watching, what speed they are going at or what type of performance it is. I'm talking about the very fundamental way they are both moving.

The classical writings on the internal systems all say the same things only using different words. Taiji, bagua, hsing yi, lhbf it doesn't matter. I'm saying this from experience as well as what my former and present teachers have drilled into me.

Well, with respect, in answer to your first point, that's subjective. "say[ing] the same things only using different words" covers a multitude of sins.

With regard to your second point, "present teachers have drilled into me" - is it just you believing what you've been told because your teacher says it? Wouldn't you say this would influence your "experience"? How about canvasing a wide range of views from people who aren't your teachers?

Look at the standard Yang taiji two handed peng & lu, bagua's single palm change a
nd hsingyi's chopping / pi fist. They all rise, drill the arms and fall into the next position.

Many Shaolin systems use these movements too. I don't see how that helps clarify the situation.

Bagau uses a very large turning of the torso via the kua as the palm falls towards the center of the abstract circle one walks around. Taiji's rotation of the spine is less extravagant as peng turns into lu and in piquan the rotation of the center is even smaller but it is there nonetheless. The footwork & positioning is different but the mechanics are the same in the context of the forces that are being used and what's going on inside the body. The forms are a large expression of what an expert later condenses into very small movements.

Choy Lee Fut also turns the body in large circles with rising and falling hand movements continually. In fact, it has way more waist turning than the Yi Quan guy in that clip I posted. In some ways it's closer to Chen Tai Chi Chuan than Yi Quan is, based on these observations alone.

The only true way to find out what's real and what's bullshit is to feel it for one's self. I speak from experience not speculation and I believe I've given an easy enough to understand explaination of what Mr. Zhu is doing and why he can do it. I don't care if his student is giving him a stiff arm or not. I know more than one individual who can do it without any help from a student as do others who have said as much. Since that's not good enough I can't see wasting any more effort trying to convince people who have no access to individuals with said skills.

John

Well, let's leave Mr Zhu out of it for now. I agree, I quite liked what he was doing, even if his students are helping him along a bit. I was really talking about the general assumption that Tai Chi, Bagua, Yi Quan, and XingYi are all based on exactly the same body mechanics. As such I've put up a blog post about it to stop this new discussion taking over this thread. Perhaps you could take a look at it and post comments over there?

Thanks,
G

This post has been edited by GrahamB: 20 March 2008 - 04:47 PM