[wotien]

OK, so in recent years there seems to be a trend in IMA circles to discredit chi and say that what makes an art "internal" is things like relaxation, whole body movement, good alignment, joints working together etc etc etc.

But isn't that what ANY good martial artist will do?

If that's really the definition of internal, then are there really any external martial arts?

I can't think of one martial art that has as its avowed purpose to use excess tension, poor alignment, poor movement and so on.

[mix]

Take it or leave it, Chi is part of the internal martial arts, but not the whole thing.
Body mechanics, relaxation etc... are all equally if not more important than Chi power.
That is why those things are stressed.

[Chris McKinley]

RE: "But isn't that what ANY good martial artist will do?". No, it's not. Muay Thai, for example, produces lots of good martial artists, but the mechanics of that art have very little to do with the mechanics of IMA. Same with Longfist. Same with Karate. Same with TKD.

RE: "I can't think of one martial art that has as its avowed purpose to use excess tension, poor alignment, poor movement and so on.". You are thinking too simplistically about it. One need not try to produce poor mechanics to have them. Further, just because one isn't trying to have poor mechanics doesn't mean they aren't there, or at the very least, that those mechanics could still be significantly improved.

[DeusTrismegistus]

The way I see it every martial artist internalizes his movements over time. So do construction workers. Watch the way an experienced road worker handles a jack hammer vs a noob, the noob will tire out much faster and have much less control than the old timer even though the young new guy is usually much stronger physically. The best masters of all Martial arts I have seen video of have internal quality to their movement. That said I think there are body techniques unique to IMA that aren't developed nearly to the same extent as other martial arts but sometimes an "external" stylist will stumble across them as well.

[yun]

Alright. Another topic that's worthwhile that's been discussed to death. This is about the definition of "internal" at the very least. Moving to BTDT. Please feel free to discuss there. I'll leave link to the discussion in the main forum.

[Uatu the Watcher the Ed]

Actually, I think that the only TRULY "external" styles are non-Chinese ones (like Muay Thai, or taekwondo, or some styles of karate). In CMA, even so-called external styles like longfist or praying mantis often include various qigong methods, dantian methods, etc. On the other hand, they will not have these methods to the extent that IMA do.

[BaguaMonk]

The internal arts also go much deeper into mechanics, intention, etc. It produces a different type of movement etc. Not saying it is particularly more efficient or "better" but it leads to a higher attainment and much more complex (eventually returning simplicity) than other internal concepts of other arts. So subtle to a point where masters of the past looked as if they had near supernatural abilities (knocking out with small short fajing, pushing with barely any visible movement, ending up behind you, moving swiftly at old age etc.)

If you really take it to the next level and decide to integrate it into your spiritual life, and you have a solid mental and spiritual awareness of what is going on, then I think IMA even takes your father. I am not saying you cannot do this with other martial arts, but the internal arts (mostly daoist based in theory) go very deep into the cosmos if you will

I dunno, some people have different understandings of things. They are better off with simpler external movement or arts that eventually turn internal, and sometimes cannot grasp or do not care to the more complex internal things. While to some others, the internal arts are easier to understand for them than to others and can apply it to their life much easier.

[Bao version 0.2]

"internal" is a historical name to distinguish a certain "family". It has not so much to do with methods as it has to do with origin. We should not put to much value into these names. Nei does not automatically create better fighters than wai.

Ah, what the heck, I even wrote a long blog entry just so I don't need to discuss this further. Read it if you want. Why do people still keep arguing . . . ?

[qiphlow]

[Darthwing Teorist]

Internal is not equivalent to good and viceversa. But I do believe that great martial artists internalized their practice both mentally and physically.

[gmc]

Another huge factor is that internal training is good for health. With internal training, first you become healthy and then develop the fighting skills. Many other systems are gradually (and not so gradually) destroying the practitioner's body. Sooner or later.

[Royal Dragon]

(and not so gradually) destroying the practitioner's body. Sooner or later.

Reply]
Is that due to external movement, or just years of over training and pushing too hard?

There are plenty of weight lifters who are far healthier than most internal artists in thier old age. In that discipline recovery time, and limiting strenuous exercise to 3, maybe 4 days a week hs gotten down to a fine science.

Kung Fu people allways want to train 18 hours a day, 8 days a week, and don't even know what recovery time is, let alone how to implement it.

I think THAT has a much greater impact on the health of old age than whether an art is internal, or external.

[qqkick]

(and not so gradually) destroying the practitioner's body. Sooner or later.

Reply]
Is that due to external movement, or just years of over training and pushing too hard?

There are plenty of weight lifters who are far healthier than most internal artists in thier old age. In that discipline recovery time, and limiting strenuous exercise to 3, maybe 4 days a week hs gotten down to a fine science.

Kung Fu people allways want to train 18 hours a day, 8 days a week, and don't even know what recovery time is, let alone how to implement it.

I think THAT has a much greater impact on the health of old age than whether an art is internal, or external.

External(wai4) refer to arm/leg strength rather than connected body strength from internal(nei4). But there is also another factor- taiji is internal b/c it cultivates the qi constantly through movint & standing meditation & exercise. But external such as TKD, whilst may have some meditation, does not cultivate as abundantly but forces it out constantly in practice.

Tension & Collapse are the two enemies of Relaxing. Tension is from working against oneself, whilst collapse is from losing to oneself. Tension has a number interesting characteristic: 1) it spreads over entire body; 2) it cause body to become stiff; 3) it uproot body; 4) it greatly limits mobility; 5) it diminish ones own force.
I'll describe an example for some of the above properties. For first one, if your hand is tense, your arm become tense, then shoulder, then neck&chest&back, then head, then waist, then legs, then feet. B/c whole body so tense, it become immobile thus stiff. B/c every punch is from the arm rather than dantien, power become stuck in the joints+tendons. If you keep straining, your joints would obviously become affected & maybe cause arthritis.

karate & such constantly use external force thus are constantly tense & have a limited root. Such a condition is set up for great instability possibly disease.

But an internal art can be practiced practically 24/7(wake to sleep) after a certain point when one has internally connected all his movements. It uses dantien to move rather than hands/feet & place great emphasis on relaxing. We can practice taiji when we get something from the fridge, standing in line, or reading a newspaper. b/c it place alot less emphasis on external force, leg/arm become losser less prone to disease. b/c we cultivate the qi & dont expend it as much, our bodies can become more powerful. Rest time become almost a foreign word after you have developed necessary leg strength+discipline since theres like no need to rest unless you straining something.

[SitYodTong]

Another huge factor is that internal training is good for health. With internal training, first you become healthy and then develop the fighting skills. Many other systems are gradually (and not so gradually) destroying the practitioner's body. Sooner or later.

Any system, trained to excess, will damage your body. Forcing yourself to into deeper stances than you are ready for in bgz or tjq is a great way to hurt your knees, for instance.

"Internal" vs. "External" is a pointless debate any way. At the highest levels of skill, ALL martial arts--including western martial arts/sports like wrestling and boxing--require the whole body to move as a coordinated unit. There is just as much use of the six harmonies in a right cross as there is in beng chuan or single whip.

If you want a really interesting read that blurs the line between internal and external, Jack Dempsey's book on boxing technique is fantastic. If you read the text and forget who wrote it, you could be reading a hsing yi manual.