[wotien]

When I started CMA, the big thing was stance training. The teacher would make people hold stances (horse, bow and arrow and others) for long periods of time. We were told that this was a requirement and that it was important because without a solid stance the techniques wouldn't work and we would "have no root".

But when the first UFCs happened, this idea seemed to get destroyed very quickly. What good did having a "solid root" do when a BJJ player or wrestler could take you to the ground. No-one's "root" stopped a takedown!

And how about when we saw muay thai guys, who spend NOT ONE SECOND doing stances ... and yet pulverizing opponents. They certainly didn't lack power or stability despite never having done a horse stance in their life!

Do MMA schools actually make students do any stances?

Now that students see that they can get the same fighting skills in MMA, without having to "prove their dedication" by holding painful horse stances, does this mean that kung fu teachers will no longer be able to make students do this?

Was the whole thing simply a scam, designed to fill up hours of class time without having to teach much?

This post has been edited by wotien: 27 March 2008 - 08:09 PM

[Josealb]

Jesus man, do some research. Test. Compare. Dont just sit on a couch and type things like that and expect an answer to all your fantasy questions.

How long have you practiced CMA? How long have you been studying the effects of stance training...and how long have you been tranining it?

[JuanM]

I always saw stance training as a training technique to strenghthen the legs. Once I re-discovered squats I stopped the stance training. I still get it at Taiji class but do not focus on it at all at home.

[Northwind]

Too, too funny...I am sure you must be joking.

[YouKnowWho]

The main purpose of the horse stance training is that when you go to China, you won't have any problem to use their toilet.

You cannot execute any fireman's carry, embracing, hip throw, or bowing throw without a solid horse stance. The horse stance, bow-arrow stance, and golden rooster stance are the 3 most important stances in any throwing art. When you get into a long serious fight, your legs will give up first before your run out of your endurance. Old CMA guys won't invest their training time for something that was not important. In SC you not only train your horse stance, you train your horse by holding your opponent on your shoulder.

- My teacher's teacher could finish a dinner while holding a horse stance (My teacher forgot to offer him a chair).
- My teacher could finish a Beijing opera while holding a horse stance (There were no empty seats left in that show).
- I can finish a full can of beer while holding a horse stance (I need to pee while drinking).

This post has been edited by YouKnowWho: 27 March 2008 - 08:41 PM

[JuanM]

FWIW From what my Taiji teacher tells me, William CC Chen does not stress holding stances much. So not all CMA classes force you to hold stances. In my Taiji class we do a little bit of stance holding but that is mostly because he is going around correcting your stance. Once in a while he will intentionally make us hold a stance but that is rare.

[JuanM]

"- I can finish a full can of beer while holding a horse stance (I need to pee while drinking)."

[Yusuf Cornholio]

John Wang makes me squirt tea out of my nose, again

[shawnsegler]

When I started CMA, the big thing was stance training. The teacher would make people hold stances (horse, bow and arrow and others) for long periods of time. We were told that this was a requirement and that it was important because without a solid stance the techniques wouldn't work and we would "have no root".

But when the first UFCs happened, this idea seemed to get destroyed very quickly. What good did having a "solid root" do when a BJJ player or wrestler could take you to the ground. No-one's "root" stopped a takedown!

And how about when we saw muay thai guys, who spend NOT ONE SECOND doing stances ... and yet pulverizing opponents. They certainly didn't lack power or stability despite never having done a horse stance in their life!

Do MMA schools actually make students do any stances?

Now that students see that they can get the same fighting skills in MMA, without having to "prove their dedication" by holding painful horse stances, does this mean that kung fu teachers will no longer be able to make students do this?

Was the whole thing simply a scam, designed to fill up hours of class time without having to teach much?

This comes down to the underlying problem of the internal external thing even though you could make a good case for stance training being either internal or external.

The real problem is that most people starting out (like you, galo) don't really know what goes into making their training work and so they have a problem dovetailing that with being honest with what they want. This mixed with the assumption that you can go beyond "styles" and just pick and choose what you want will give youi the question you just asked.

This is near and dear to my heart, because i have a pretty good idea of what I want and how it works and a lot of it revolves around stance training.

So, what does stance training give you? Depending on how it's taught it will give you different things, right?

If you train it the longfist way it'll have a large endurance factor and it will place a large emphasis on the yogic body opening component. Is it important to you being able to fight? It depend on what you want. It gives you certain attributes that are part of "gung fu". Gung fu is about eating bitter to gain an attribute...so you can drop and still fight but you won't have gained the specific atrributes gained from opening that part of the body in that specific way...regardless of what style you are practicing.

If you do your stance training the internal way for long periods of time (this includes walking) then you are jacking up the neuromuscular/mindbody aspect of the training where you are burning those differnt shapes and stances and transitions into your body/mind/memory....the more dynamic and fullfilled you want that attribute to be is once again dependent on how much sweat you put into it. Do you need that to fight...not necessarily, but if you want those attributes to be part of your fighting style then yeah, you need to put in the time.

I'm having to go back and eat bitter on all that stance training stuff because I got too lazy too early by myself....and it's a pain in the ass, but I'm going back and doing it because I want what you get out of that. If you don't see having those attributes available to you as being as important as being able beat the fuck out of a heavy bag with your thai kicks then don't.

Best,

S

[Ian C Kuzushi]

The main purpose of the horse stance training is that when you go to China, you won't have any problem to use their toilet.

JW is a god! That was awesome and so true!

I still do stance training while waiting in line or bored in a conversation with someone. But compared to when I started CMA (especially tjq), I have slacked big time. I should do more, but I also think that too much can level out and other, more dynamic training can be better.

[JuanM]

Honestly, to me, William CC Chen is the best out there in Taiji. Again, read the first few words , this is strictly my opinion and not a put down to any one else's teacher. I just feel that he is the Alpha and Omega of Taiji in my book. If he does not do much stance training I am not going to do much stance training.

[Josealb]

Juan, go out more.

[neijia_boxer]

As someone who went through the 'eat bitter' for many parts of my early training years with stance training and moving stance training, i am glad cause it give the MMA people a harder time to take me down. also the only stance training they do at the MMA school i go to is squats/dips and wall-sits and these are on occasion and every other day rotated into other exercises for strength. its not the same as CMA. we also do kettle bell stuff that uses horse stance. the CMA early years helped me last alot longer than most people at the school.

[JuanM]

Juan, go out more.

[Bao version 0.2]

Stance practice is great. As a teacher, if you forgot to make some important phone call, or if you are just fed up with your class and want some coffee, you can just let them stand there in a santi or horse stance while you take a break.

And I have cured some serious back pain with san ti practice - twice. San ti rules!

[Tao Joannes]

We actually held formal stances like san ti and that I-chuan stuff, along with simple (8 stances of shaolin) type stuff, and holding individual taiji postures for various lengths of time.

Its good stuff.

[dragonprawn]

Do MMA schools actually make students do any stances?

I sure do. I make my students do them & my teacher makes me do them and when I went for BJJ lessons they could not pull me down. I had to "take a flop" to get to the ground and the BJJ teacher even called me on it. But what could I do? They could not pull me down. i am not saying I can't get taken down, I am just saying what used to happen. plus when the BJJ guys saw me holding horse before class and didn't know what it was for, and yet they were all banged up with no exercises to heal themselves, well I found that pitiful. Young guys too. It is actually the healing, preventing of injury, stretching, strengthening, energizing of horse that are more important than any rooting benefit anywaty.

But you started this thread and didn't post again. Did you realize how ignorant it sounded? I forgive you because this thread generated some of the best Wangisms of the year so far.

I gotta go pee.

[jafc]

I'm having to go back and eat bitter on all that stance training stuff because I got too lazy too early by myself....and it's a pain in the ass, but I'm going back and doing it because I want what you get out of that.

Shawn,
You too, huh. I found I hit a wall & could not progress. It was recommended to me by my sifu that I had been not been diligent about low posture in both circle walking & stances. I thought this just meant leg strength. Now, three months into focusing just on this issue, I realize it is about less about leg strength & so much more about connection, lightness & coordination. What really sucks - all that leg training means I have to stretch a whole lot more to avoid injury. I fucking hate stretching

JC

[dragonprawn]

But a proper stance also stretches.
yeah the leg strength only takes weeks. Other benefits continue to grow after that.

[jpaton]

When I started CMA, the big thing was stance training. The teacher would make people hold stances (horse, bow and arrow and others) for long periods of time. We were told that this was a requirement and that it was important because without a solid stance the techniques wouldn't work and we would "have no root".

But when the first UFCs happened, this idea seemed to get destroyed very quickly. What good did having a "solid root" do when a BJJ player or wrestler could take you to the ground. No-one's "root" stopped a takedown!

And how about when we saw muay thai guys, who spend NOT ONE SECOND doing stances ... and yet pulverizing opponents. They certainly didn't lack power or stability despite never having done a horse stance in their life!

Do MMA schools actually make students do any stances?

Now that students see that they can get the same fighting skills in MMA, without having to "prove their dedication" by holding painful horse stances, does this mean that kung fu teachers will no longer be able to make students do this?

Was the whole thing simply a scam, designed to fill up hours of class time without having to teach much?

dude you are so right! i never thought of it like that. it's like i was blind but can now see. why am i wasting my time with this yi chuan shit? i'm gonna give my teacher what-for this weekend let me tell you..!