[Royal Dragon]

Hello all!
Below is a clip of Chung Moo Quan's Tom McGee, considered by many to be the one who best absorbed John C Kim's teachings and could be considered his Standard bearer so to speak. He is a Mini Moo


I posted this in BTD because it's not really research related like all my other threads on this subject in the last 8-9 months.

I just figured you would all enjoy what it was like to be in a real Cult indoctrination lesson.

McGee was one of my primary teachers when I was in back in the late 80's. After seeing this, other than adding some new Anatomy vocabulary, he is giving almost the identical speech he used to give back then.

Have fun, and I suggest wearing your welding helmet for protection if you want to sit through all 30 minutes of this....it *IS* hilarious and worth it, but it is best to have some protection to be safe.

Enjoy!!

http://video.google....248489866886666

[Plain 'Ol Jerry]

Oh, you beat me to it. I was going to put this up today.

Your post is way more eloquent than mine would have been.

Everyone, please take the time to sit through the whole thing. It will be at times disturbing on a bunch of fronts but mostly, if you look at it from a fresh newby prospective, how easily it would be for this guy to convince them to apply his snake oil.

Just enough ambiguous "truths" to garnish the plate of garbage.

Scary.

[Northwind]

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing....and this guy is full of...I feel sorry for these kids.

[xingyijuan]

It's amazing that people fall for this shit! Makes it look real easy to start your own cult... mmmm... have to look into that!

[Tao Joannes]

I could seriously just NOT take that dude yelling "AIY!" every fifteen seconds for any longer than about, oh, say, thirty seconds without giving him a mandarin duck leg upside his waddling groundhog face.

[gryphonz]

Groundhog form... Seriously.

[Plain 'Ol Jerry]

Groundhog form... Seriously.

And you better not forget to burrow your head so that your hips can get the recommended 4-5 inches of openning up.

There was a time when I bought into this bs.

I'm ashamed of my former gullible self.

[Royal Dragon]

What is amazing is that Mcgee buys into it. I think this guy really believes what he is saying here.

He actually had a chance to learn Zhao Bao Taiji from a good player of the art and he messed it up with his arrogance.

[Plain 'Ol Jerry]

What is amazing is that Mcgee buys into it. I think this guy really believes what he is saying here.

He actually had a chance to learn Zhao Bao Taiji from a good player of the art and he messed it up with his arrogance.

I think he finally woke up and realized that he had mastered the shtick of selling it so well, why bother handing all the money to john kim when he could keep it all to himself.

I'm not sure that he doesn't know that it's bull. I don't think he cares because he feels it's too late to start over and the money is too good to turn away.

Imagine living penniless for years under the thumb of someone you idolize, go to jail for them and finally leave the comfort of all you know only to figure out that all you have to do is hang out your shingle and all the money you were generating for him could be yours.

He'd have to have some serious moral fibre to turn that down and start with something a little more authentic. And if he had that fibre to begin with, he never would have been in the moo for 30 years to begin with.

[Royal Dragon]

No, he really believes this stuff. He's hooked up with Jerry cook through the guys in AZ. He could easily substitute the Moo forms for legit family Kung Fu sets and do the same thing with real knowledge.

I mean, he took the time to learn all those anatomy terms. He knows who to go to here and learn Ma family Long Fist and Hung Gar and teach that instead. He *HAS* been approached and offered the good stuff. He is perfectly capable of educating himself and phasing the Chung moo out. He is ACTIVELY choosing not to.

Since he is not under Kim's control any longer, there can only be one reason...he actually believes Kims style is legit.

[Plain 'Ol Jerry]

No, he really believes this stuff. He's hooked up with Jerry cook through the guys in AZ. He could easily substitute the Moo forms for legit family Kung Fu sets and do the same thing with real knowledge.

I mean, he took the time to learn all those anatomy terms. He knows who to go to here and learn Ma family Long Fist and Hung Gar and teach that instead. He *HAS* been approached and offered the good stuff. He is perfectly capable of educating himself and phasing the Chung moo out. He is ACTIVELY choosing not to.

Since he is not under Kim's control any longer, there can only be one reason...he actually believes Kims style is legit.

You may be right. As you know, I am also under the Jerry Cook umbrella (not contractually, just movement-wise) . I teach both the Hung system but the Ma family system as well from his line. I find them to be very good, authentic forms. There are of course differences here and there depending on who you talk to. But at least SOME people will look at it approvingly. Instead of NOONE saying that the moo has value.

If you go here:

http://www.unitedmar...om/registry.php

you will see that he is listed as an equal to Jerry Cook in their heirarchy ( with Chris Dining too. For those who don't know, he's the most recent high ranking former national intructor refugee from the moo)

[qiphlow]

he's got the powpow disease.

[Mas Judt]

Huh... I think much more of the moo baggage has carried over than they let on...

[BAI HE]

There's a nice dose of fear tactic by way of "Degenerative health talk" in the beginning...
The rest is rather un-impressive. Just not me cup of tea.

My little brother trained for a minute in there Braintree mass. school., he was only thirteen and he said "I'm not going back, there's something wrong."

Other than that, when I lived in Newton (Mass.) and trained in Kenpo under Joe Esposito, he always wanted to have local tournaments
with the OYD guys or organize some sparrng sessions. They wanted nothing to do with it and maybe swore out a restraining order against him.

[Tigershape]

No, he really believes this stuff. He's hooked up with Jerry cook through the guys in AZ. He could easily substitute the Moo forms for legit family Kung Fu sets and do the same thing with real knowledge.

I mean, he took the time to learn all those anatomy terms. He knows who to go to here and learn Ma family Long Fist and Hung Gar and teach that instead. He *HAS* been approached and offered the good stuff. He is perfectly capable of educating himself and phasing the Chung moo out. He is ACTIVELY choosing not to.

Since he is not under Kim's control any longer, there can only be one reason...he actually believes Kims style is legit.

Wait, I though Jerry Cook was just a form collector, one of the people that learned it, then tweaked it and sold it as his ancestors special fighting form, is he linked to OYD in some way? I don't know too much about him, other than the forms I have seen online, can someone explain his deal to me please? Thanks

[Royal Dragon]

The link is that a number of *Former* Chung Moo quan guys went to him to learn after they left the Moo. So you see all these guys teaching Chung Moo foundational forms, and then things like Ma family Long Fist and Hung gar at the same time. Thy have a funky mix of Old moo traditions and systems Jerry Cook later taught them.

I think it is good that they left Chung moo to improve themselves, however Jerry Cook's system now has a Mooified branch with all these former Moos running around teaching his system, mixed with thier old stuff and old Moo mindset. It's still way better than what they were doing as Moos though.

[Royal Dragon]

I personally think the man has the patience of a saint. I have tried teaching former moos before, and it's just too damm frustrating trying to get past thier deep inbred brainwashing.

Except for a very few who were able to surpass thier past, I actually consider Former Chung moo followers to be unteachable.Thier heads are just too messed up once they have spent any significant time there.

[Tigershape]

What is so hard about teaching them? What are they taught? I have read a little online about them, and all it seems is like a social cult, but I haven't gotten too deep into their martial arts, except for the little red bags they hold. Other than that, I haven't seen many people really discuss their martial philosophy or practices. Anything you can share would be great. Thanks

[Royal Dragon]

It's really hard to describe. You pretty much have to experience them in person. it is a very dangerous and destructive cult, and the brainwashing program they are subjected too messes them up really bad. Part of it is learning all sorts of bad structure and training habits while simultaneously being strongly brainwashed to believe that correct structure and training methodology is watered down and inferior. When you go to train them properly, they keep reverting back to thier brain washing and try do do everything the Moo way.

Go to the clip and review 2:00- 2:30. His whole little skit is basically to make main stream exercise look dumb. He then goes on to re-educate the class to the proper moo ways of developing. By the time these guy get to Black belt, they have been so pickled in that thinking that when they see someone who knows what they are doing, they actually laugh at them (even if it is just inside) and dismiss thier methodology as being improper and ignorant.

When you are trying to teach a student who deep down is looking at you like you don't know what you are doing, and they know better, it makes it impossible to educate them.

You have to forcibly drag the horse to water, beat him unconscious and make them drink intravenously to teach them anything.

It's just too stressful and frustrating. I won't do it.

This post has been edited by Royal Dragon: 15 April 2008 - 04:34 PM

[xingyijuan]

RD, I hear you man!

It may look obviously flawed to people looking from the outside, but for student involved in such cults have a hard time telling what is true. Their whole development is marked by false examples where the teacher convince them by staged scenarios what he's saying is the truth. If the student doesn't have the opportunity to test what he has been taught, he will keep convinced that what he knows is the truth. And in some cases, even that won't do! It is most dangerous when the student and teacher develop a father-son like relationship. If the teacher becomes a father/mother figure, no matter what that person will do, the student will always close his/her eyes even on the worst things.