[BAI HE]

http://www.aikidojou...ea31325fc2add15

Interesting read.

[Aksijaha]

we can't mention... oh wait...

we can.

We just can't invite Sigman back or Justin will crawl through the cell phone line and fa li me in the nose.

[Interloper]

I was following the original discussion on E-Budo, but since Mike Sigman is banned there, he couldn't join in the fun. It was just a matter of time before he found another venue to engage in verbal combat. It was like an episode of "Highlander" -- he couldn't engage Nathan Scott on E-Budo (Holy Ground), so he lured him to an unsacred site. And then it was just a matter of a little more time before the admin/owner on AJ Online locked the thread.

Frankly, I wouldn't mind letting Mr. Sigman participate here. As inflammatory as he can be, he does know a lot about internal skills and application, and it's authentic. If you can get past the strong personalities and egos of some of the old-timer IMA people (which he is), you can learn something of value.

Okay, let me put my flame-proof bodysuit on.

[looks2ce]

i am so down with inviting Sigman here too. I never got to see the flame wars, so I don't know whats going on there, but the more people with time and training invested in their lives that are involved with EF (oops, honest habit; I suppose it is HY now : or RL), the better.

I'd love to hear the mans words and insights.

Besides, if it becomes a flame fest, it might be a good training and evaluation tool for our new Admin staff. At least with that BTDT, the arguments and players are known.

Bring it on!!

.conal.

[Andy_S]

"Interesting" debate?

"Ridiculous" is how I'd characterize it.

Here we have two people, one (Mike) saying, "I've seen your vids, and it is obvious to me that you are missing the core skills you are meant to have in the arts you do!" - which is about as condescending as one can get (esp as he does not go into details.)

The other person (Nathan) responds: "Acutally, I have the skills, it is just that I don't show or teach them to beginnners or the public, but, dammit, I DO have these skills - so there!. And furthermore, my pal has watched your videos and you don't have them!"

There was a day when such debates would be carried out on a deserted beach at sunrise or in a square ring before a crowd.

Now, they are carried out in the form of an Internet debate, with both parties talking past each other and neither actually putting out any useful information (presumably, as the other party would be unable to comprehend or acknowledge said information as useful or even relevent) that I can see.

Pah.

[Iskendar]

"Interesting" debate?

"Ridiculous" is how I'd characterize it.

True. I've seen much more interesting stuff involving Sigman on AJ or aikiweb than this. Here it's just the usual "your shit is fake" - "is not" - "is too" nonsense. The threads with him and Dan Harden or Ellis Amdur, those are worth reading, as there is actual content being discussed. As to Mike's neo-traditionalist attitude of keeping info from the bandwagon-hoppers who'd mine it for empty buzz-words, personally I disagree with that. New-age twats abuse quantum-mechanical terminology at a rate which should have Bohr and Einstein spinning in their graves enough to power a major city, but that shouldn't keep any physicists from publishing. You do research, you get it out in the open. IMO.

P.S. For those looking for a comic-book moment, there's been a Sigman vs. Arriola fight on aikiweb recently. Well, fight...bitchslapping session really

This post has been edited by Iskendar: 15 May 2008 - 09:10 AM

[Sprint]

Please don't invite him here. His basic argument goes like this " you don't know shit but I do. However, because I am such a nice guy, if you pay me, I'll tell you all you need to know. He has quite a talent for dressing this up, so that he sounds quite plausible. Indeed he has, I believe, some skill. But as that other post demonstrates, he knows his abilities are quite limited, and so he badgers people he suspects know more than he does. And for those that are just stratospherically beyond him, he accuses of withholding true teaching. His gift is self publicity - not much else.

[cdobe]

I was following the original discussion on E-Budo, but since Mike Sigman is banned there, he couldn't join in the fun. It was just a matter of time before he found another venue to engage in verbal combat. It was like an episode of "Highlander" -- he couldn't engage Nathan Scott on E-Budo (Holy Ground), so he lured him to an unsacred site. And then it was just a matter of a little more time before the admin/owner on AJ Online locked the thread.

Frankly, I wouldn't mind letting Mr. Sigman participate here. As inflammatory as he can be, he does know a lot about internal skills and application, and it's authentic. If you can get past the strong personalities and egos of some of the old-timer IMA people (which he is), you can learn something of value.

Okay, let me put my flame-proof bodysuit on.

We should learn from the bad experiences of others and don't let him post here. It would only be a matter of time, before the drama begins.
I also find that his knowledge is very one-dimensional.

Chris

[JoseFreitas]

I took the time to read the thread. Mike Sigman comes off looking like a know-it-all smartass, and a rather offensive one at that. Which is a shame given he certainly has some interesting ideas and skills. I admired the other guys restraint. Mike is a nice person when you meet him, apparently. But as the other guy said, it's easy to be a nice guy when you're standing in front of other martial artists...

[Aksijaha]

But as the other guy said, it's easy to be a nice guy when you're standing in front of other martial artists...

I know *I'm* much nicer in person.

Dunno if that's cowardice or that I'm trained to be helpful in person.

[BAI HE]

I thought the interesting part was the Koryu snigglets on "Internal training" and their
perspective of it's development. Some of the stuff Dan Harden has been asserting for a long time.

[yun]

I started to read that thread on that site linked, but I couldn't force myself to wade through the heaps of verbiage.

I've personally never invited anyone to join the forum outside of this context: face to face conversation and I say - "hey, you should have a look at ef.net. I think you'd be interested" (or something to that effect) Neither of the blowhards in that thread would be my first picks of people to invite.

[Interloper]

When Mike Sigman gets into those screeds like the one on AJ Online and many on AikiWeb, I just want to shoot out his computer keyboard, but on his good days he can be informative, insightful (in respect to IMAs) and downright funny.

But Yunshan and several others who posted have an excellent point. It's probably better off not letting this "genie" out of the bottle here. It would be more work than it's worth to get him back inside. I guess I just have a soft spot in my heart for longwinded egoists who actually do know something about IMA.

[looks2ce]

No - you should all do what I say and let him here. My opinion is the bestest !!

C - fine with letting old dogs lie

[bestill]

If the contestants were awarded points I believe Mr. Sigman would have won. Years ago Mike ruffled some feathers with some articles he wrote for tai chi magazine and those articles had some very positive effects on the tai chi scene here in the U.S. Now I'm not going to toot his horn but we (the internal arts community)need critical thinkers otherwise the internal arts would become stale and "tofu" tai chi would be all we'd have.

[Sprint]

If the contestants were awarded points I believe Mr. Sigman would have won. Years ago Mike ruffled some feathers with some articles he wrote for tai chi magazine and those articles had some very positive effects on the tai chi scene here in the U.S. Now I'm not going to toot his horn but we (the internal arts community)need critical thinkers otherwise the internal arts would become stale and "tofu" tai chi would be all we'd have.

Critical thinking is one thing ( and by the way you did just toot his horn); trawling forums trying to drum up seminar business by insinuating no-one and I mean no-one knows as much as he does is something else again.. What finished it for me as far as he is concerned is that he said that the top people in Yiquan did not pass on the full teaching. I do not know if he has ever been to China and actually met the Yao brothers or their contemporaries, but his remarks are an insult on many levels. First of all the Yao brothers do not hold back; they really, really want people to get it. They are extremely open and approachable, one might even say a bit naive on a commercial level. But dishonest is just not them, at all, period. Second, if he had actually met them then what he is saying is that he met honest approachable decent human beings and then lied about them for his own gain. Third, the post that I recall said that while the top people in Yiquan did not pass on the true teaching, he actually knew what it was anyway and would obviously for a fee enlighten everyone. So what he is saying is even though he did not learn from a lineage holder of CIMA from the age of 8; even though he did not practice up to 8 hours daily under the personal tuition of a lineage holder for decades and even though he holds no lineage himself, he still knows more than someone who has......

[Bolen]

Fuck Sigman!

S

[J.C. (Z)]

Critical thinking is one thing ( and by the way you did just toot his horn); trawling forums trying to drum up seminar business by insinuating no-one and I mean no-one knows as much as he does is something else again.. What finished it for me as far as he is concerned is that he said that the top people in Yiquan did not pass on the full teaching. I do not know if he has ever been to China and actually met the Yao brothers or their contemporaries, but his remarks are an insult on many levels. First of all the Yao brothers do not hold back; they really, really want people to get it. They are extremely open and approachable, one might even say a bit naive on a commercial level. But dishonest is just not them, at all, period. Second, if he had actually met them then what he is saying is that he met honest approachable decent human beings and then lied about them for his own gain. Third, the post that I recall said that while the top people in Yiquan did not pass on the true teaching, he actually knew what it was anyway and would obviously for a fee enlighten everyone. So what he is saying is even though he did not learn from a lineage holder of CIMA from the age of 8; even though he did not practice up to 8 hours daily under the personal tuition of a lineage holder for decades and even though he holds no lineage himself, he still knows more than someone who has......

Well, Sigman believes that he knows Yiquan better than people who actually practice it.

http://www.elliottha...s...asc&start=0

You'll need to register to read that though.

[yun]

Threads simply about Sigman and his forum persona really is BTDT. Before this thread finds its way to BTDT, maybe the thread can come on track.

If anyone has bothered to read that bunch of stuff on the linked thread, is there anything relevant? If so, please offer a "coles notes" summary of what is being debated there. I assume there must be something of good interest aside from watching the wreck of two trains colliding.

[Interloper]

Unfortunately, the stuff being discussed by Scott and Sigman in the AJ Online thread only alludes to some material that is of great value -- the core skills of internal power. But instead of dwelling on that, they chose instead to create a train wreck.

Hence, the AJ thread itself is of no redeeming value, which is why the editor closed it.
We probably should let this thread go lie down and take a nap, too.