[taichibulldog]

the reality behind the Chen family claims revealed
« on: May 30th, 2008, 9:12pm »

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Hi folks ,
i posted a topic last year i think about the fact that Chen style Taijiquan is not and never was the origin/source of the Taijiquan OF THE YANG, WU, HAO, or Sun styles .

I KNOW THERE WAS REFERENCE to the Chen style being listed in it's home nation of China some years back as an external style.

of course the listing was correct for the most part though the Chen family has now converted their family boxing style Pao Chui originally from shaolin not far from Chen village into what is know today as Chen family Taijiquan

I BELEIVE this was motivated pure and simple by economics and the Chen's realising early on how popular Taijquan would become in China .

I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT, but i do have an issue with taking credit for something you did not create as your own!!!

the other families alos by and large went along with this too, so they all can share the blame/shame.

I feel it was a much better way to handle the issue then to lie and make fools of the world basically. with most all involved maintaining

with that said iwant to make it known that i truly believe that Chen family Taijiquan as it's known today is a valuable martial/health resource .

shoot i 1st. added overt chan ssu chin because of their emphasis on this aspect of Taijiquan. I EVEN wiould learn it if possiblel shouldfortune shine on me one day.

i prefer the lineages of GM. FENG & GM. HONG who were both sifu to Joseph Chen . WHO I KNOW IS ONE OF THE BEST TEACHERS EVR NOT JUST IN MODERN DAYS.

how do i know ? it's simple he is straight forward with his instruction , thorough, and clear . he also seems very kind and compassionate too . easily communicating what he has to teach. that's why i know !

ok so back to the evidence and more issues that prove my hypothesis correct.

a cut and paste job is coming yall as i'm sure u knew.
i'll do so in the follow up post .
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Anthony A. Reid


taichibulldog
Anjing




We all need each other!




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Re: the reality behind the Chen family claims reve
« Reply #1 on: May 30th, 2008, 9:29pm »

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ok heres is the cut & paste of the interview with GM. MA of Wu style TAIJIQUAN

not to easy to find lol, but like a bulldog i wouldn't let go. peace and enjoy please comments as this should generate a lot of discussion


Q & A's with Master Ma Yueliang.
Interview by Patrick A Kelly



Could you please tell us of the history of the evolution of Taijiquan as he you have witnessed it this century?
"Before Yang Cheng-Fu and Wu Jianquan", he stated clearly, "the slow form did not exist. Yang Lu-Chan learnt the Fast Form from the Chen family and it was passed through Yang Cheng-Fu's father and uncle to Yang Cheng-Fu. It was passed through Wu Jianquan's father to Wu Jianquan. This is not the same as the present Chen Style form which is a mixture of Taiji and Chen family style Gongfu. Together Yang Cheng-Fu and Wu Jianquan created each their own Slow Form from their understanding of the Taiji principles.


Please tell us about the origins of the Fast Form?
The Fast form was unashamedly for fighting but the new slow forms had a greater emphasis on health and self cultivation". Master Ma said that he saw Yang Cheng-Fu come regularly to the house of his father-in-law Wu Jianquan - which was where Master Ma was also living - and saw these two old legendary masters practicing together. Many times he saw Yang Cheng-Fu practicing the Fast Form but to Master Ma's knowledge Yang taught it to nobody. "The Yang Fast Form died with Yang Cheng-Fu" he said. Yang Cheng-Fu's older brother taught only the Fast Form as he had received it from his father, but he took few pupils and the line did not survive. Wu Jianquan continued to teach both the Slow and the Fast Forms, though the Fast Form was generally reserved for `inside the door' disciples. Many branches of the Wu style have lost their Fast Form according to Master Ma.


Who was Wu Chien Chuan's main teacher?
Wu Chien Chuan learnt mainly from his father Wu Quanyou. Wu Quanyou was a student of Yang Luchan although he is sometimes said to be a student of Yang's son Yang Panhou (with the purpose of strengthening the Yang lineage).


What is Peng Jin and is it better to maintain a little in the arms for example to prevent people from coming in?
People misunderstand Peng. There is another word with the same sound and only one stroke different that means something like structure or framework and people often think this is what is meant by Peng. If you base your Taiji on this incorrect meaning of Peng then the whole of your Taiji will be incorrect. Peng Jin is over the whole body and it is used to measure the strength and direction of the partners force. But it is incorrect to offer any resistance. It should be so light that the weight of a feather will make it move. It can be described like water which will, with no intention of its own, support equally the weight of a floating leaf or the weight of a floating ship. Then he added in English: "Peng Jin is sensitivity".


Should the movement come up from the ground like a wave or is it lead by the fingers with the whole body following as one? (I demonstrated both).

The first is correct.


Should the mind go out ahead of the body when practicing the Form?
It is correct to go ahead of the body but practice of this should ultimately lead to the highest stage. The highest is when there is no intention but the correct thing just happens naturally by itself. When practising the Taiji Form these days my mind is completely empty as in meditation.



back to Ma Yueliang


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Anthony A. Reid


I COPIED THIS FROM THE OTHER EMPTY FLOWER SITE LOL, I FIGURE MORE MIGHT SEE IT HERE SINCE THE WINDS OF CHANGE ARE UPON US NOW. THX

[Tao Joannes]

Chen and Yang are barely the same martial art at all, even in the modern iteration, in my experience and opinion.


The real gungfu of yang style taijiquan is to change your structure so that the opponent's force lands on nothing, and your strength is applied against their weakest point, through the application of yielding and the substance of central equilibrium.

[Tao Joannes]

Yes, of course, I haven't studied it at length, but I have worked with some relatively skilled chen guys from time to time.

They're different things, with only a passing resemblance to each other in a few points.

This post has been edited by T J Replicant: 02 June 2008 - 08:52 PM

[Doc Stier]

the reality behind the Chen family claims revealed

i posted a topic last year i think about the fact that Chen style Taijiquan is not and never was the origin/source of the Taijiquan OF THE YANG, WU, HAO, or SUN styles .

I KNOW THERE WAS REFERENCE to the Chen style being listed in it's home nation of China some years back as an external style.

of course the listing was correct for the most part though the Chen family has now converted their family boxing style Pao Chui originally from shaolin not far from Chen village into what is know today as Chen family Taijiquan.

Chen Chuan has admittedly undergone content changes in the course of it's many generations of historical development to date, as have ALL of the other major family styles of Tai-Chi Chuan you listed, but this fact does not negate the direct influence that specific Chen Styles had in the creation of the Old Yang Style Tai-Chi Chuan by Yang Lu-ch'an (楊露禪) (1799-1872), which is clearly a modification of the Chen Old Frame Yi-Lu Set that Yang learned from Chen Chang-Hsing (1771-1853).

Since the original style of Wu Chuan-Yu (吳全佑) (1834–1902) is essentially a minor modification of the Old Yang Style, the Old Frame Chen Style influence is apparent by extension into Wu's style as well. The older Yang and Wu Style Form Sets both contain form posture sequences seen in the Chen Old Frame Yi-Lu Set, and many of the postures bear the same names, although the physical performance may look different in some of these instances.

Similarly, the original style of Wu Yu-Hsiang (武禹襄) (1813-1880), a.k.a. the Wu/Li/Hao Style, is a blend of Wu's received transmissions from Yang Lu-Chan, a noted Chen Old Frame Style Master prior to creating his own family style, and the Chen Small Frame Style learned from Chen Ching-Ping (陳清苹) (1795-1868). Likewise, the original style of Sun Lu-Tang (孫祿堂) (1861-1932) is an edited modification of Wu Yu-Hsiang's original form set, and thus also directly influenced by the Small Frame Chen Style.

These direct connections to known versions of Chen Boxing are verifiable historical facts which cannot be denied or ignored in my humble, but correct opinion!

Doc

[Seraph]

So........

?

Is this like a historical exploration of the origins of taiji... or like a beef about something that's happened centuries ago in China? *Shrugs*

[Bartek B]

Is this like a historical exploration of the origins of taiji... or like a beef about something that's happened centuries ago in China? *Shrugs*

Yes. This is it, boring stuff, China, taiji, anyway...Rickson by armbar!

[Doc Stier]

"Is this like a historical exploration of the origins of taiji..."

Well, yeah, it has to be, since the initial post to open this thread erroneously states "Chen style Taijiquan is not and never was the origin/source of the Taijiquan of the Yang, Wu, Hao, or Sun styles."

The historical record clearly shows that the above quoted statement is totally false. The modern versions of these styles developed in the past 75 years may not appear to have been influenced by the Chen Style, but the older styles in their original versions definitely do, IMO.

Doc

[Doc Stier]

We have to leave room for the idea that every surviving representation of form has been changed and specialized in some way. There are lots of elements and methods IN the 'styles' that are not overtly shown in the form at every turn, yet still may be present.

Quite so! Well said.

Doc

[Bajifan]

The historical record clearly shows that the above quoted statement is totally false. The modern versions of these styles developed in the past 75 years may not appear to have been influenced by the Chen Style, but the older styles in their original versions definitely do, IMO.

I don't know, I always thought the relationship was pretty obvious from even a simple visual perspective when watching the forms.

[Jake]

Hella interesting thread to me.

Lately, I don't even think about forms, origins, styles, whatever.... It's all just simple movement.

That's just me. Cheers all.

[ppscat]

Besides, even if Chen Family borrowed some of Yang's or Wu's stuff in somewhere between 1850's and 1920's...so what??? That doesn't change that Yang Luchan learned Taiji in Chen village, as he and his family clearly stated. Also, there's an equivalent form of Pao Chui in some lineages of Yang, Wu and Hao styles, just google a little more...

This post has been edited by ppscat: 04 June 2008 - 01:18 AM

[Doc Stier]

Besides, even if Chen Family borrowed some of Yang's or Wu's stuff in somewhere between 1850's and 1920's...so what??? That doesn't change that Yang Luchan learned Taiji in Chen village, as he and his family clearly stated. Also, there's an equivalent form of Pao Chui in some lineages of Yang, Wu and Hao styles, just google a little more...

Agreed. Yang Lu-Chan lived in Chen Village until he was 41 years old, was at that time and stil is now acknowledged to be an expert practitioner of the Old Frame (Lao-Chia) Chen Style. This is in fact one of the boxing styles, and probably the primary boxing style, that he initially taught to his sons, Yang Pan-Hou and Yang Chien-Hou. His grandson, Yang Shao-Hou, also thoroughly learned and seriously practiced the Old Frame Chen Style style for most of their lives. Bogic would suggest that such Chen Style training must have been a major factor in the development and maintainance of their extraordinary fighting skills.

I believe that this was also true of Wu Yu-Hsiang and other old master's as well.

Doc

This post has been edited by Doc Stier: 04 June 2008 - 07:51 AM

[chun]

I have never been a great historian

But Chen style is very similar to the other styles, so I would say it is a great possibility

[Doc Stier]

There is enough variation within Chen styles as it is now, that some Yang styles even now could just be considered another variation, it's not so far.

Quite so! And this has apparently always been the case from my perspective. As a case in point from my own experience, when I initially learned the Chen Style Old Frame Form Set (Lao-Jia Yi-Lu), I was surprised at the number of obvious correlations between it and the Old Yang Style Long Imperial 108 Form Set that I already practiced.

The correlations include the presence of common postures with the same names, although sometimes a bit different in physical appearance, adherence to shared concepts and principles of practice and application, and a great similarity in the stylistic interpretation of the movement patterns, such as deeper stances, more overt use of arm and hand circularity, and greater spiral rotations of the body trunk than is typicaly seen in more modern versions of Yang Style Tai-Chi Chuan. And these are only a few of many examples which verify a shared foundation of common concepts and principles, IMO.

It is very clear to me that the Old Yang Style Set is essentially a modified and edited variation of the Chen Old Frame Set.

Doc

This post has been edited by Doc Stier: 05 June 2008 - 06:31 PM

[taichibulldog]

Geez, that's pretty muddy.
Firstly, unfortunately, Mr. Ma would not have had any more reliable handle on the truth of a history that happened before he was born than we do now.

ok mo ling according to you and your theory how the heck do u say the above as if you know what gm. ma knew and didn't know lol i , because i usually respect your opinion . yet, u state things about ma that in no way are you privy too. it's like what u say is correct and what he says can't be lol!!!

Secondly, he never trained Chen family methods, and there again has no authority whatsoever to reliably state that,
"the present Chen Style form which is a mixture of Taiji and Chen family style Gongfu."
I mean, its a fine opinion, but it is completely lacking both personal experience, as well as scholarly evidence to back it up. In fact what there IS available refutes this opinion.

again dude u speak with no evidence that you know what this man knew or didn't ; how would u know GM. ma's personal experience in China ? how would you know who he saw and what he saw from what masters of the time . you say he talks about stuff that happened before he was born also. lol heres a little reminder of him just for your viewing pleasure.

don't forget to check his birth date too. by 1929-30 when the chen style form came back to bejing it had been changed to reflect more Taijiquan as shown be the Yangs ( GM Ma was 28-29 years old at the time ) , AND MAYBE OTHERS ( not sure about others myself )


also just to keep things in the real world of perspective and the likelyhood of legitamacy .

when an interview is done it's not always that the interviewer will ask for more back up evidence or proof of the statements that the subject of the interview makes . more often than not the person is a known authority to speak on the subject at hand. at least in this instance that seems to be so.

btw GM. Ma was known throughout the Chinese Martial Arts community as having a very high level of " WUDE" , i have never heard anyone speak badly about him, his character , or his skills that actually knew Ma or had the chance to exchange skills with GM. Ma .

As such I don't think he would say what he did if he didn't feel it was true . if anything he would have dodged the question rather than knowingly LIE .


Grandmaster Ma Yueh-Liang


Master Ma Yueh Liang (1901-1998), son-in-law and disciple of Master Wu Chien Chuan. He married Master Wu Ying Hua. He graduated from Peking Xie-he Medical College. After Master Wu Chien Chuan died, the Association in Shanghai was run by Master Wu Ying Hua and Master Ma Yueh Liang. They co-authored the books: “Wu Style Simplified Tai Chi Chuan�, “Wu Style Tai Chi Chuan Fast Form�,“Wu Style Tai Chi Chuan Explanation in detail�.

Master Ma was, until his recent death, one of the greatest recognized practitioners of Wu style Tai Chi in Mainland China and the World. His ultimate skill defeated all challengers from around the world and he accepted challenges well into his 90's. His reputation and skill in this regard is unsurpassed.

Master Ma 's excellence ranged from accuracy of the the forms to theory and applications in free sparring and push hands. He remained unbeaten.

Taijiquan, and "Chen Taijiquan" was originally a mix of methods, including "Chen Family style gongfu". This was never a secret, and it is pretty clearly what Yang learned as well.

TAIJIQUAN was always a mix of various martial arts true ; but then u add the addendum that " chen family gonfu is a part of original taijiquan in the way u make your statement.

this can not be true. if Chen Family Gong Fu was always Taijiquan we wouldn't be having this discussuion at all. and that also would make GM. MA A BIG LIAR WHICH I DO NOT BELIEVE IS ACCURATE, DO YOU?


YOU SAY THAT THIS WAS NEVER A SECRET , how can u in 2008 say such a thing ? sounds to me as if you are making an attempt to protect the name of your style by actually carry on with the confusion , or u are just trying score brownie points within your lineage lol

YOU ALSO STATE " It's clear what Yang learned as well " meaning Yang Lu Chan that is hugely funny . so funny we still don't have the complete form of yang lu chan as done by him . if we do nobody's showing it still, is this also why people accused Erle Montague of inventing the form he promotes as Old Yang Style , only to have the Chinese make him a 7th. duan after having him demo his skills to them ?

their is so much more that could be said here about the Yang family Taijiquan that was hidden from the public for the most part and still is !!!

There is another problem here, which is that he says it was originally just a fast form that was handed down, and then they added the slow elements. Problem is, he is in the same breath attempting to invalidate Chen gongfu for having what.. a slow form and adding fast (paochui) to it? This does not make sense.

sorry dude, but u make statements about GM Ma above that come from you not him . u can't change words around to suit you dude, at least not in a discussion with me lol.

Basically, while MA may have had his positive qualities, being an unbiased historian clearly was not one of them. In this case, he is just doing the normal thing; talking negatively about a 'competing' method and style that he has no experience with, and no factual research of it's origins.

again u tow the family line and hide behind misinformation that u don't know about yourself.

if u noticed , the tone of his anwers was not antagonistic, he anwered what was asked of him no more. he din't seems to be spewing venom at all, as this was not his way. it's a shame u would imply this about such a seemingly great Treasure of a man , not just a great sifu

it is very very easy to see the relationships between yang Chen and Wu if you have enough experience. It is easy to see how Yang got various moves from Chen and what they changed etc. The idea that Chen taught the original fast form to Yang then, LOST it ALL, so they had to ADD paochui... um, that's just dumb really.

[taichibulldog]

not done with u yet . last but not least is another attempt to conceal the truth by adding something not spken of

u say it is easy to see...... it's not , and in really poor taste u say that pao chui was added back in....

I NEVR SAID THAT, NOR DID GM. MA IN HIS INTERVIEW . SO WHY ACT LIKE THAT WAS A CLAIM BROUGHT UP HERE IT WAS NOT .

WELL ,IT WAS , BUT ONLY BY U. SHAMEFUL DUDE

[Aksijaha]

Taichibulldog,

You are a valued member which is why I'm mentioning this. Please don't use massive amounts of ALLCAPS
JUST LIKE THIS.. because in online terms it is "screaming/yelling" and is deemed rude.

Also you need to learn to use the quote tags. If this is a problem for you please PM an admin and they
will assist you. The sort of non-effective quoting you had trying to change colors and so forth, it
doesn't work well and stifles the conversation. Many people will simply tune you out, or even place
you on Ignore setting. This is not good for your own growth and learning if people don't want to talk to
you right?

I know you can do much better if you take a few moments and try to be considerate.

Thanks
Y. Aksijaha.

[Taoist]

There is enough variation within Chen styles as it is now, that some Yang styles even now could just be considered another variation, it's not so far.

Naturally, as the foundation to all systems still comes via the understanding of Yin and Yang......

Martin.

[taichibulldog]

see what i mean Y. Aksijaha . i just saw the last post . i didn't intend for it to comer out like that at all.

yet, i will persist until i do it better , btw for my own level of comfort not because of politcal correctness !

Mo Ling had u made those statements initially in the original response to me then i would have been fine with that . but guess what u functionally changed the meaning of your original post . so were we supposed to read your mind ?

personally i think it's more of what i 've seen before in journalism. subtle mis-direction . maybe u should have tried it with someone that is totally a sponge cause i'm not , and what u said convicts u . as what i say convicts me sir.

[taichibulldog]

I 'M HERE to try to get a handle on the truth, which is a might tough seeing how so many for sooooo long have been content to believe lies.


I FOUND reference to the Chen Family style being listed by the Chinese as an external style some time ago .

Now I can't begin to recall where i saw the remark . Now does that make it invalid cause i can't recall, no it does not.

Does the fact that someone has not studied a style that they have seen,been around , knew people personally who studied it, and thus was privy to ses this style along with changes mean that it 's not credible . lol

cause that's what u are saying Mo Ling . I have never had a baby or made a baby. so does that mean I DON'T KNOW HOW TO TAKE CARE OF A BABY OR RAISE A CHILD , because i haven't had my own ? Mo ling the answer is No in case u needed help lol.

"So, really to the point here, I am not intending to insult him, but this is a discussion of historical fact now. In this case, he might be totally wrong, whether he means to "lie" or he is simply misinformed is not the point. The point is, the information is inaccurate. It is a difficult history to really be accurate about, and it was actually harder in his time than it is now. You getting my point here? No need to have a big personal dispute over it. It is not a personal issue."


u leave out & ignore so many things in this above it's not funny. i for one don't think u are stupid either , so i assume u did so on purpose . if u had not ,you could not make a decent point at all in the above comment except for the last two sentences which i agree with u on to a point . You even contradict yourself right away.. " he might be...... then u say the point is ...... lol yes my ting jin is alive online lol . hope i can get it to this level physically btw.


to be continued....