[ironrogue]

So here is some hsing yi training from the Black Taoist. What do you'all think?
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=dm7kiMk1oD8

[Aksijaha]

Everybody knows BT and I hate one another with the fury of a thousand suns.. so I will just make two observations..

1.) As much as I hate the man and wish he was not associated with the bagua style.. he obviously puts more work into his bagua than his xingyi. If I were him I would stick to what I had spent the sweat equity on...
2.) Those students (or at least the majority of them) don't need the linking form.. they need more single element practice.

But if they dig BT's style and he can make a little cash and have fun teaching them.. cool.

[ironrogue]

Y. AK-sijaha: Nice post. I have a couple question though. Actually these questions are for everybody. Watch these two different videos:

http://www.youtube.c...feature=channel
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=dm7kiMk1oD8

"1.) As much as I hate the man and wish he was not associated with the bagua style.. he obviously puts more work into his bagua than his xingyi. If I were him I would stick to what I had spent the sweat equity on...
2.) Those students (or at least the majority of them) don't need the linking form.. they need more single element practice."

So what I am gathering is that old boy from the first video thinks that the man from the second video should not be associated with bagua....hmmm. And then he also thinks that the man from the second video should "stick to what he had spent the sweat equity on." Lol. Too funny.

Ok second question: Did you happen to tell him your opinion of his hsing yi when you sparred with him? Probably huh. You probably showed him how to do it properly after that huh. Right on. lol.

Haha, just playin around with you budy. Actually on a friendlier note I liked your use of those safety goggles. That is a good idea. Have you ever had them break on you though?

[Aksijaha]

"1.) As much as I hate the man and wish he was not associated with the bagua style.. he obviously puts more work into his bagua than his xingyi. If I were him I would stick to what I had spent the sweat equity on...
2.) Those students (or at least the majority of them) don't need the linking form.. they need more single element practice."

So what I am gathering is that old boy from the first video thinks that the man from the second video should not be associated with bagua....hmmm. And then he also thinks that the man from the second video should "stick to what he had spent the sweat equity on." Lol. Too funny.

Read what I said carefully bro. I didn't say "BT should not be associated with bagua".. I said that "I wish he was not associated with the bagua style". That's a pretty clear distinction I think. I wish he didn't do bagua. But he does.
Pretty simple.
I think it's also pretty obvious that his Bagua is way better than his Xingyi and IF I WERE HIM I would be sticking to my strong suit (which for him is bagua).

Again pretty simple.

Ok second question: Did you happen to tell him your opinion of his hsing yi when you sparred with him? Probably huh. You probably showed him how to do it properly after that huh. Right on. lol.

I never saw BT's xingyi. When I visited him it was very friendly. We did play a bit with sticks. BT lacked control and skill with a stick. We were playing scholar's privilege with sticks (i.e. no head shots) since we didn't have goggles for eye protection. BT tried rather hard to get his hits in (he's a highly aggressive type) and came close to a graze to my face with his wild stick twirling, the idea of a "foul" really isn't in his gameplan, careless and crude). Since it was getting dark we called it a night (playing aggressive people with poor control in the dark you don't want to hurt is a bad idea).
Most of our emptyhand interaction was all working some bagua ideas. I don't have much liking for his bagua.. but it is bagua and he has spent alot of time on it. It wasn't sparring. If he had come on that strong with emptyhand I would have immediately taken shit to the ground. He has no skill with that and I'm just as big as he is

[ironrogue]

"Read what I said carefully bro. I didn't say "BT should not be associated with bagua".. I said that "I wish he was not associated with the bagua style". That's a pretty clear distinction I think. BT is a horrible human being IMO. I wish he didn't do bagua. But he does.
Pretty simple.
I think it's also pretty obvious that his Bagua is way better than his Xingyi and IF I WERE HIM I would be sticking to my strong suit (which for him is bagua)."

Haha right on dude.

"And yeah.. he's a horrible human being IMO. Like I said... we hate each other. Difference is.. I can be civil to my enemies and my friends and give them credit where due. BT can't. He has to tear down others to justify his attitude."

Who is tearing others down right now, lol.

Seriously thoug, I dont really have a vested interest in this. I just find it funny.

[Ian C Kuzushi]

Okay, let's get this back on topic.

I think that is a terrible vid to use to discern BT's Hsingi. He is teaching and not performing. However, his teaching there seems much less detailed/knowegable than his Bagua teaching/explanation vids.

[Tadzio G]

Consistent with most of the XYQ I have seen in the west, which I don't like.

[Lion]

me don't like so much.

[Wanderingdragon]

Traditional gongfu has no separation between artistry and function. If function does not operate THROUGH artistry, it is not authentic. The whole point is to practice artistry that builds function. Therefore, when you want function, you just express artistry, and do not have to think of function.

Is distinctive XYQ body, movement, or artistry recognizable here?
This is a big difference in viewpoints based on experience. It is common these days, especially in the west to think that "whatever works" is a good and authentic approach. In traditional gongfu society in China, this is not the case.

There is a difference between "whatever works" and "how it actually works". These days, however, that is not a convenient viewpoint for everyone to hold.

Excellent point Mo, as in both clips the men show they know what works, but the how and whys are missing in their demo, I notice they both work from the upper body

[Aksijaha]

Excellent point Mo, as in both clips the men show they know what works, but the how and whys are missing in their demo, I notice they both work from the upper body

The clip Rogue threw up of me is "entries inside a static flow drill model"... strictly shoufa. So you are quite correct. Totally upper body.


Bagua shenfa and bufa is notably absent (hopefully only by design LOL).

[Tadzio G]

Is distinctive XYQ body, movement, or artistry recognizable here?

Good points as usual. As for the one quoted, most people have no idea what are "XYQ body movements". Most XYQ nowadays is just the outside movements of the 5 forms and 12 shapes and for the few that show applications most are just kikckboxing style using their respective 5 forms and 12 shapes. XYQ is much, much more than that.

[kshurika]

Okay, Tadzio, please tell us what is "much, much more". You live and train in China. I'd like to hear what you've learned on this subject.

Cheers.

[kshurika]

Uh-huh. Well, I'm sure that Tadzio appreciates your speaking for him, especially since you don't know xingyi. Now, I'd like to hear from Tadzio; that is, if it's okay with you.

This post has been edited by kshurika: 23 February 2009 - 07:28 AM

[Tadzio G]

Uh-huh. Well, I'm sure that Tadzio appreciates your speaking for him, especially since you don't know xingyi. Now, I'd like to hear from Tadzio; that is, if it's okay with you.

Marin is just trying to help. Let's relax.

The 5 forms and the 12 fists are only the housing. I can buy the same housing for my desktop but the hardware inside is the real thing. Every martial art (good ones, of course) has intrinsic characteristics that are the core of it, they are, generally speaking, concepts that determine the physical expression of the art. From a physical point of view my personal opinion is that the ultimate goal of a martial artist is to be able to physically express in fighting the elements that are the core of the art he practices. A punch will always be a punch but the mechanics involved in the process, the method of delivering power and other things get to be very different from art to art. For example a boxer will be different from an Yiquan fighter, and both will be different from a XYQ fighter. Sometimes the differences are very obvious and can be perceived by anyone and sometimes they are very subtle, but they are still there.

The differences don't stop in the movements but are extended to other areas, like fighting strategy. One of the main problems that are evident nowadays is the fact that most people, even if they practice different martial arts, fight all the same. There is very little specific strategy and body methods and core principles involved in most XYQ sparring videos over the net. Don't think that because you see some movement that looks like the 5 fists in fight then what you are seeing is XYQ, that is not the case. (This is a silly comparison, but for the sake of understanding....) A good XYQ fighter can , for example use only western boxing type of punches and it will still be very distinctive, very different than western boxing.



A always liked Novell's attitude keeping the martial side alive and I respect him for that, I just personally don't like the XYQ on the vid.

This post has been edited by Tadzio G: 23 February 2009 - 08:55 AM

[wuwei]

Traditional gongfu has no separation between artistry and function. If function does not operate THROUGH artistry, it is not authentic. The whole point is to practice artistry that builds function. Therefore, when you want function, you just express artistry, and do not have to think of function.

Thank you. Your paragraph so eloquently described the essence of traditional martial arts that I think I'm going to steal it.

[kshurika]

Hello, Tadzio:

Thanks for your answer. As YOU know, I've never jabbed at you, or started a "bitching session" with you and I rarely ask "ridiculous" questions. You were kind enough to answer a long list of my questions a few months ago on this forum and I've always had the utmost respect for you going to China to get deeply into your art. Unfortunately, there are people here who feel they have to stick their noses into things they know absolutely nothing about - like Shanxi Xing Yi, for instance; which both you and I practice. Why would that would be?

Oh, wait, I just answered my own question, Tadzio. When I see that someone not only pipes up with his worthless opinions but ALSO has several thousand postings, I realize that this is someone who spends more time typing then actually practicing. Such people like to answer before others do with opinions rather than concrete information, because then they don't have to practice. Years ago, when I studied Chen style with Ma Hong and Chen Xiaowang and even just a few years ago, when I studied with Chen Bing and Chen Xiaoxing, I found that I spent so much time practicing that I rarely had time to type. And, since I no longer practice Chen style, I hold off piping up with my lame opinions about something I don't practice. But, that's just me, Tadzio.

I also appreciate your concern, Tadzio that I keep relaxed. I'm feeling fine, though. I really am. It's 4:15 a.m. here in California and I'm going to put in three+ hours of practice before I teach my morning yoga class. Then, I'm going to see my Xing Yi teacher (who, like you, spent many years in China studying and is now a highly-regarded IMA teacher). Then, this afternoon, another two hours of practice, before my evening yoga class. But, I don't want to bore you with my schedule, Tadzio. I just won't have any time to type (although I'm sure others will), and I wanted to thank you before my day begins.

I'd better be careful and wind this up, Tadzio. The Administrators might think I'm being mean to one of their nosy super-typers - I mean "posters" - and hand me another suspension, or even banishment - which would truly destroy me. Thanks again and best of luck in your practice.

[Ian C Kuzushi]

Please just keep the personal comments out of it.

When I see that someone not only pipes up with his worthless opinions but ALSO has several thousand postings, I realize that this is someone who spends more time typing then actually practicing.

[Tadzio G]

Kshurika,

I am happy for you since you actually seem to have a lot of time to put into your practice. Let's just try to keep this thread on track. As much as I understand that at times we all have to say what we feel we must say, there is a time and a place for that.

This post has been edited by Tadzio G: 23 February 2009 - 04:51 PM

[tim_stl]

Actually on a friendlier note I liked your use of those safety goggles. That is a good idea. Have you ever had them break on you though?

assuming those are the 'lab goggle' types (which it looks like they are), i don't recommend them. one guy brought them to a sparring session with wooden knives and the lens in the front popped in and cut his eyelid. use goggles with one-piece construction.



tim

[ironrogue]

"It is also useless to ask someone who is living in the martial art society in China to 'explain' what they have learned."

I dont believe that anybody is asking anyone to explain everything they have learned. He was just asked to explain better, that which he already spoke about. He did give an excelent post about his opinions....now if we could just get him to put up a clip.... I'm not sure why there is a problem, lol.