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I was wondering if there were any way to access topics on the old forum. I wanted to look at the ship pal gi discussion thread a couple months back, but I couldn't get to it.
I wanted to ask what do people in Lu Shui Tian's lineage practice. I remember someone posting something like- single and double palm change, some breathing exercises, 8 basic techniques, and 8 forms. I don't know if this is exactly how Shin Dae Woung practices, so I wanted to get confirmation.
Korean Bagua...and Question About Old Forum Topics
#2
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Posted 08 November 2007 - 05:53 PM
QUOTE (viet @ Nov 8 2007, 11:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I was wondering if there were any way to access topics on the old forum. I wanted to look at the ship pal gi discussion thread a couple months back, but I couldn't get to it.
I wanted to ask what do people in Lu Shui Tian's lineage practice. I remember someone posting something like- single and double palm change, some breathing exercises, 8 basic techniques, and 8 forms. I don't know if this is exactly how Shin Dae Woung practices, so I wanted to get confirmation.
I wanted to ask what do people in Lu Shui Tian's lineage practice. I remember someone posting something like- single and double palm change, some breathing exercises, 8 basic techniques, and 8 forms. I don't know if this is exactly how Shin Dae Woung practices, so I wanted to get confirmation.
Bok Nam Park was a student of Lu Shui Tian and has published a two volume set on the fundamentals of bagua. This includes the footwork, body exercises including dragon back, 8 fighting palms, 8 animal palms, etc. There is also two videos to match the books.
The old forum forgets topics after about 6 months.
nash
This post has been edited by nash: 08 November 2007 - 05:54 PM
#3 Guest_Fan The Madman_*
Posted 08 November 2007 - 06:33 PM
Coop (who is a member) trains with another of LST's students down in Louisana.
I will point him towards your thread. From what I can tell each of LST's students
came away with a slightly different interpretation of the same basics.
Which would be totally consistent with how this lineage tends to do things.
I will point him towards your thread. From what I can tell each of LST's students
came away with a slightly different interpretation of the same basics.
Which would be totally consistent with how this lineage tends to do things.
#4 Guest_Fan The Madman_*
Posted 08 November 2007 - 06:35 PM
QUOTE (nash @ Nov 8 2007, 05:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The old forum forgets topics after about 6 months.
nash
nash
Fortunately this never needs to happen again... This particular thread can be revived
for clarity indefinitely. As long as a thread doesn't descend into total ugliness and
get deleted by moderation it will be here indefinitely. NO MORE AMNESIA!!!
#5 Guest_wolfram_*
Posted 08 November 2007 - 07:45 PM
QUOTE (Fan The Madman @ Nov 8 2007, 02:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Coop (who is a member) trains with another of LST's students down in Louisana.
I will point him towards your thread. From what I can tell each of LST's students
came away with a slightly different interpretation of the same basics.
Which would be totally consistent with how this lineage tends to do things.
I will point him towards your thread. From what I can tell each of LST's students
came away with a slightly different interpretation of the same basics.
Which would be totally consistent with how this lineage tends to do things.
I think that's an understatement. I've spoken with Chun (Coop's teacher), and it seems that he and Park have very different BGZ curricula (although there is significant overlap). I'll be visiting him sometime in 2008 and will be visiting another one of LST's students over the Thanksgiving break.
The common curriculum elements seem to be (as far as I can tell thus far):
1. 8 stances
2. 8 short linear forms (like Tan Tui)
3. Linear, Circular, and Overhead Fan Zhang
4. Shaking Palm strike (single and double)
5. Dragon Back (single and double palms)
6. Single Palm Change
7. Lion Step circle walking
8. Er Lu Pi Kwon (long linear "fighting" set)
Park integrates 8 elbow techniques that are probably abstracted from Tai Chi Mei Hua Tang Lang (the major Mantis system in that area in that time) into his BGZ. To help beginners attain a basic "kung fu body," he teaches a few Sip Pal Gi forms that are Mantis/Long Fist.
Chun apparently teaches a number of long linear forms, of which Er Lu Pi Kwon is one of them. Coop can speak to Chun's curriculum better.
I'm sure others will chime in to complete this list, but this is it as far as I can tell. I think there is significant overlap in the weapons forms but would prefer that someone with better knowledge speak to this (I'm looking to Coop and Steve Bonzak in particular).
It would be awesome to have a number of LST's grand-students get together and share material/compare notes. It seems that Park/Chun's generation of disciples don't really cooperate or communicate much, which I've always thought is a shame. Maybe we can bring the "family" back together one day.
This post has been edited by wolfram: 08 November 2007 - 07:50 PM
#6 Guest_Fan The Madman_*
Posted 08 November 2007 - 08:27 PM
The shenfa is probably much the same however. LST's bagua is (insofar as I know) not
really focused on the forms. If you have the basic attack palms, and the fan zhang...
and drill them to death.. you have the root.
really focused on the forms. If you have the basic attack palms, and the fan zhang...
and drill them to death.. you have the root.
#7 Guest_wolfram_*
Posted 08 November 2007 - 10:27 PM
QUOTE (Fan The Madman @ Nov 8 2007, 04:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The shenfa is probably much the same however. LST's bagua is (insofar as I know) not
really focused on the forms. If you have the basic attack palms, and the fan zhang...
and drill them to death.. you have the root.
really focused on the forms. If you have the basic attack palms, and the fan zhang...
and drill them to death.. you have the root.
Shenfa curricula in Park's system that I don't know are present in other LST's students' methods:
1. The footwork method (both in the spring-loading of the legs and the drills themselves), which plays a major part in how Park's power method is expressed
2. "Wringing" qi (a type of dynamic tension training)
In addition, it's not clear to me if all of the palm strikes that Park teaches are present in the other curricula.
Like I said, I would love to see what all of LST's major students teach. Isn't that the way CMA was generally taught? "I've taught you a lot; now go to my lineage brother, who can show you something different with the same material." Seems like LST's students aren't particularly cooperative in this regard.
#8
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Posted 09 November 2007 - 12:53 AM
The purely "Bagua" aspects of Shin Dae Woung's curriculum (at least as far as I learned it, and aside from the Chang Chuan/ Praying Mantis material in the curriculum) were two basic palm changes while circle-walking, the "Fan Zhang" drills, a couple of "fa jing" type palm strike drills, and 16 short linear forms/ combos (simply referred to as "Bagua 1-16"). The 8 stances were more from Chang Chuan/ Mantis, though the last posture was the Bagua "dragon" posture.
#9
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Posted 09 November 2007 - 01:28 AM
A few comments;
Lui Shui-tien's (Korean: No Su-jeon's) Bagua has almost died out in Korea; the current generation of Bagua people tend to learn from mainland masters. Park was one of No's two top students, and when he left, the Bagua scene in Inchon faded out. Most Incheon MA people now do Taiji (the Beijing forms and Chen style) or other Bagua styles. One guy told me that No's bagua was very basic and so was not that popular. (FWIW, I consider that a great compliment to No's bagua: too many CMA students want to learn intricate forms, but never get the footwork and power generation down, and so can never freestyle.)
His son, No Su-doc is still alive (or was when I bumped into him in a Seoul gift shop five or six years ago) but does not teach. People who knew the scene back then tell me that No Jr was considered a good fighter, but not necessarily a great bagua technician or teacher.
FYI, the elbows in Park's system were learned from another Korean MA master who was teaching on the US Army base that Park also taught on, but were NOT mantis. I was told the name of the style by Park's student Ahn Chul-gyun, but can't remember it (I had never heard of it before, and have never heard of it since. Pity.)
Lui Shui-tien's (Korean: No Su-jeon's) Bagua has almost died out in Korea; the current generation of Bagua people tend to learn from mainland masters. Park was one of No's two top students, and when he left, the Bagua scene in Inchon faded out. Most Incheon MA people now do Taiji (the Beijing forms and Chen style) or other Bagua styles. One guy told me that No's bagua was very basic and so was not that popular. (FWIW, I consider that a great compliment to No's bagua: too many CMA students want to learn intricate forms, but never get the footwork and power generation down, and so can never freestyle.)
His son, No Su-doc is still alive (or was when I bumped into him in a Seoul gift shop five or six years ago) but does not teach. People who knew the scene back then tell me that No Jr was considered a good fighter, but not necessarily a great bagua technician or teacher.
FYI, the elbows in Park's system were learned from another Korean MA master who was teaching on the US Army base that Park also taught on, but were NOT mantis. I was told the name of the style by Park's student Ahn Chul-gyun, but can't remember it (I had never heard of it before, and have never heard of it since. Pity.)
#10
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Posted 09 November 2007 - 01:34 AM
It's a real shame that Lu's teachings are dying out in Korea 
. Kinda like the Tang Shou Tao dying out in Taiwan. I've trained fairly extensively in both of these methods and they are both very strong, traditional systems of teaching. At least these methods are still going strong elsewhere (Lu's teachings with Shin Dae Woung in Italy and Park Bok Nam in the U.S., and the Tang Shou Tao with various branches in the U.S.).
. Kinda like the Tang Shou Tao dying out in Taiwan. I've trained fairly extensively in both of these methods and they are both very strong, traditional systems of teaching. At least these methods are still going strong elsewhere (Lu's teachings with Shin Dae Woung in Italy and Park Bok Nam in the U.S., and the Tang Shou Tao with various branches in the U.S.).
#11 Guest_wolfram_*
Posted 09 November 2007 - 03:30 PM
QUOTE (Andy_S @ Nov 8 2007, 09:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
A few comments;
FYI, the elbows in Park's system were learned from another Korean MA master who was teaching on the US Army base that Park also taught on, but were NOT mantis. I was told the name of the style by Park's student Ahn Chul-gyun, but can't remember it (I had never heard of it before, and have never heard of it since. Pity.)
FYI, the elbows in Park's system were learned from another Korean MA master who was teaching on the US Army base that Park also taught on, but were NOT mantis. I was told the name of the style by Park's student Ahn Chul-gyun, but can't remember it (I had never heard of it before, and have never heard of it since. Pity.)
Interesting. I was told that they were taken from a mantis system. At any rate, we know for a fact that the elbow work in Park's system is one of his contributions to LST's curriculum.
#12 Guest_wolfram_*
Posted 09 November 2007 - 03:32 PM
QUOTE (Andy_S @ Nov 8 2007, 09:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Park was one of No's two top students...
Who was the other?
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Posted 09 November 2007 - 03:56 PM
Dai Soung Chun?
From what I gather, he's Park's senior by about a decade. Does anyone know if this is correct or not?
From what I gather, he's Park's senior by about a decade. Does anyone know if this is correct or not?
#14 Guest_Fan The Madman_*
Posted 09 November 2007 - 05:24 PM
QUOTE (Royal Dragon @ Nov 9 2007, 03:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Dai Soung Chun?
From what I gather, he's Park's senior by about a decade. Does anyone know if this is correct or not?
From what I gather, he's Park's senior by about a decade. Does anyone know if this is correct or not?
Yep.
There is also a distinct possibility that Park did some training with him.
#15 Guest_wolfram_*
Posted 09 November 2007 - 07:23 PM
QUOTE (Fan The Madman @ Nov 9 2007, 01:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yep.
There is also a distinct possibility that Park did some training with him.
There is also a distinct possibility that Park did some training with him.
I'm hoping to get out to Chun's school next year.
#16 Guest_Fan The Madman_*
Posted 09 November 2007 - 07:24 PM
QUOTE (wolfram @ Nov 9 2007, 07:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm hoping to get out to Chun's school next year.
Same here. I'm quite interesting in finding out what it feels like to get hit by one of LST's students.
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Posted 09 November 2007 - 08:21 PM
QUOTE (Fan The Madman @ Nov 9 2007, 01:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Same here. I'm quite interesting in finding out what it feels like to get hit by one of LST's students.
LOL! I know Park almost ripped my arm from my shoulder when demo'd on me. Was certainly glad that he held back.
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#18
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Posted 09 November 2007 - 08:31 PM
As an old student of Park back in the college days of Richmond Va. something interesting Park taught me about pivoting, V-step, and Y-step have come full circle to me with my current Muay thai teacher recently. Muay Thai instructor was showing us V-step for kicking and then steping back to fight position (Y-step) also some pivot stepping stuff. very cool how similar martial arts are and how information comes back around in different forms.
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#19 Guest_wolfram_*
Posted 09 November 2007 - 08:54 PM
QUOTE (Fan The Madman @ Nov 9 2007, 03:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Same here. I'm quite interesting in finding out what it feels like to get hit by one of LST's students.
I've been hit by Park and some of this other students. Hurts like a mofo, a total-body shock.
#20
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Posted 09 November 2007 - 09:13 PM
as i've been.
park went very very easy as his palm was over my heart.
cant say i've ever felt such a distinct feeling of something entereing my body and pushing in towards my heart in that way.
park went very very easy as his palm was over my heart.
cant say i've ever felt such a distinct feeling of something entereing my body and pushing in towards my heart in that way.
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