[Aksijaha]

It's hard to figure out how to characterize them. To me they look almost like they are Tien Gan exercises of some sort.

[yun]

The first video appears to be a warm exercise you could find in many CMA classes.

The second video reminds me of longfist arm movements.

The third video looks like a nice warm up stretch.


In my opinion, there isn't much too special here. Doesn't mean the stuff has no value, but I don't think it's too innovative for sure.

[macbutch]

So just some comments from my *very* limited understanding of Aunkai (anyone that knows more, please feel free to correct etc...).

It's hard to figure out how to characterize them. To me they look almost like they are Tien Gan exercises of some sort.

That seems about right - there are definitely some similarities. Aunkai is about building a martial frame (or martial body) and is not a martial art in or of itself. So the purpose of the Aunkai videos is quite similar to what I understand of Gao Bagua's Tian Gan (though perhaps a little more generic).

Interestingly the Aunkai that I've learnt I've got from the same guy who is teaching me bagua - and my understanding of the purpose of each (Aunkai and the Tian Gan) is similar. There are obvious differences in the shape of the exercises - but more importantly in the way you think about the exercises which is obviously not at visible in the vids.

In my opinion, there isn't much too special here. Doesn't mean the stuff has no value, but I don't think it's too innovative for sure.

I think 'innovation' if you like is more in the explanation of the exercises (some of the details you're supposed to focus on) and the mental imagery you use. Certainly from looking at the exercises theres not much special. My teacher explained some of these in the same way you've described them - "this one is a bit like 'x' but you need to visualize it like 'y'". Aunkai has a version of the horse stance/mabu that looks a lot like the normal stance but feels quite different.

In my experience doing something like Tenchijin (3rd vid) is much more difficult than you might expect. There are some subtle points to it that aren't particularly visible so without someone to guide you through them I think it's hard to see the purpose. I believe that Ark says that anyone that can do more than about 6 reps of Tenchijin in a row isn't doing it right.

mmm.. have to agree with that. I felt the same way watching the man's own vids. I am sure it's good for someone, but not everything is good (interesting) to everyone.

Yup, I've not seen Aunkai that looks particularly impressive either in person or on the net. I think it's hard to see whats really going on. That said - Chen Taiji is not for everyone, nor is Gao Bagua and maybe thats even more true for Aunkai. I'd still suggest you guys check it out if you get a chance - you might find that theres more to it than you think (or not ).

Some links that might help understand the movements (a little) if anyone is interested:

http://www.unleashin...p?title=Ashiage
http://www.unleashin...tle=Shintaijiku (I think this is the second vid but I'm not that good at remembering the names...)
http://www.unleashin...title=Tenchijin

Ouch - way longer than intended...

-mark

[Iskendar]

Ok, what I've understood from the Aunkai seminar I attended and the endless aikiweb discussions:

Ashiage (leg raises) actually is derived from the standard wushu warmup drills. However, the focus is not on balance or leg flexibility, but on maintaining the "cross" (juji) beween the shoulders. Lifting up your leg to the limits of your flexibility tends to mess up your structure, the exercise here is in preserving it through six direction extension. The intent is different from the original exercise, which makes it a lot more useful.

Shintaijiku is a foundational exercise of Yagyu Shingan Ryu. Very tongbei-like, in that it trains a "through the back" connection between the arms (again, the "cross"). Again, extension is used to create structure. Doing it with a staff across the back is a very interesting exercise.

Tenchijin is a very hard exercise when done correctly, and is most definitely not a "nice warmup stretch". In essence it's the same basic neigong exercise you find nearly everywhere (see Sigman's "universal exercise"), but the extension makes you feel the connection right away, instead of after endless repetitions, and it is immediately clear what is meant with "six directional force". I learned more about internal structure in one Aunkai seminar than in a decade of playing with silk reeling.

P.S. Mark, I suppose you know about the Paris seminar in two weeks?

[macbutch]

P.S. Mark, I suppose you know about the Paris seminar in two weeks?

No, I didn't actually... but I do now. Thanks!

[Iskendar]

No, I didn't actually... but I do now. Thanks!

http://www.leotamaki...e-28648826.html

[ChiBelly]

The Tenchijin exercise reminds me a lot of Drop Snatches / Overhead Squats, but with only the resistance of your body. These exercises are sometimes done much more slowly than in the videos below. To do these exercises successfully, you have to drive your energy through your heels, up your legs and spine, through your arms, and finally up to your palms while keeping your entire skeletal structure perfectly aligned. In other words, you have to have whole body movement and connection. If you lose your alignment even slightly, you will unable to hold up the weight. If you lean at all, you will lose your balance and drop the weight.

Drop Snatches:



Overhead Squats:

This post has been edited by ChiBelly: 05 April 2009 - 04:43 AM

[Aksijaha]

Nice lifts ChiBelly... I will have to try those with my kettlebells....

[ChiBelly]

Nice lifts ChiBelly... I will have to try those with my kettlebells....

You'd have to adjust the width to have a much more vertical grip - I don't think it would be possible to use kettlebells using a snatch-width grip. Even so, I imagine it will be extremely difficult to balance. Be careful!

[dnotman]

weights actually are a different demand and can be easier to load under(not that they aren't hard or good etc, but different), but obscure the connections you are trying to sense and develop in ten chi jin

[ChiBelly]

weights actually are a different demand and can be easier to load under(not that they aren't hard or good etc, but different), but obscure the connections you are trying to sense and develop in ten chi jin

Can you explain what you mean by "load under?"

[dnotman]

the weight itself makes it easier to compress into your structure evenly, where as body weight alone forces you to find your alignments.....example, i find it easier to do a pistol with a kettlebell than without one, the weight of the bell makes it easier for me to balance and load

[ChiBelly]

the weight itself makes it easier to compress into your structure evenly, where as body weight alone forces you to find your alignments.....example, i find it easier to do a pistol with a kettlebell than without one, the weight of the bell makes it easier for me to balance and load

I see what you're saying. The kettlebell pistol actually does compress into your structure and the location of the mass aids in your balance because it is held near your core, at least from the versions I've seen. I can tell you that the snatch press (also known as the "snatch balance") exercise is very difficult to balance and there is very little tolerance for misalignment, or you will topple over and drop the weight. It is a very different exercise than a pure squat or the pistol. The compression of the weight does not naturally go into your structure, so bone alignment becomes extremely important. That is, in fact, the essence of the exercise and the reason it is done with such little weight compared to the squat. In the snatch balance, the weight is held far above your body and has to be perfectly aligned at all points in the movement or both you and the weight will topple over. Most people have trouble doing it with just a broomstick overhead. Try to replicate what you see in the video with just a bar (no weights on it) and you'll see what I mean. They key is to do the whole movement without leaning over and keeping the weight going through your heels.

If you want to try something similar with a kettlebell, try doing the pistol with the weight held fully extended overhead rather than held close to your body, or better yet, extend it overhead *as* you are sinking, so that when you are fully at bottom, the kettlebell is fully extended above your head with your arm locked out. You might have to use two kettlebells at half the weight to keep even force on the left and right side of your body. I am not even sure it is possible to do a pistol in this fashion.

[macbutch]

The Tenchijin exercise reminds me a lot of Drop Snatches / Overhead Squats, but with only the resistance of your body. These exercises are sometimes done much more slowly than in the videos below. To do these exercises successfully, you have to drive your energy through your heels, up your legs and spine, through your arms, and finally up to your palms while keeping your entire skeletal structure perfectly aligned. In other words, you have to have whole body movement and connection. If you lose your alignment even slightly, you will unable to hold up the weight. If you lean at all, you will lose your balance and drop the weight.
[videos snipped for brevity]

There are some definite similarities - I'll give these a try (without much weight!) they look like 'fun'. I'm not sure that the aunkai stuff is quite as effective without the mental visualisations (I have no idea why this would be). For example in tenchijin (as I learned it, not from Ark so...) you kind of imagine that you're being pulled upwards by your hands - for some reason this seems to make it harder. I can imagine that it would be harder to visualize that in the same way if you've got weight in your arms.

I'm not sure that what I've said there has a lot of validity btw. Very tired here just some thoughts... thanks for posting the vids CB definitely looks interesting.

-mark

[ChiBelly]

There are some definite similarities - I'll give these a try (without much weight!) they look like 'fun'. I'm not sure that the aunkai stuff is quite as effective without the mental visualisations (I have no idea why this would be). For example in tenchijin (as I learned it, not from Ark so...) you kind of imagine that you're being pulled upwards by your hands - for some reason this seems to make it harder. I can imagine that it would be harder to visualize that in the same way if you've got weight in your arms.
-mark

I think the importance of mental visualisations is a big topic on its on. Certainly in Taiji people would say that your intent is what initiates qi. Phrased in western terms, mental visualizations and intent causes your body to organize its neurological function towards a particular goal. Even when I do a snatch, my coach tells me that I should imagine myself "reaching up as if I were trying to grab something off a top shelf" rather than "pushing the weight up and locking out my arms." When you visualize the former, what it does is cause your spine to straighten and elongate despite the fact that you have a weight forcing you down. In contrast, if you just focus on forcing up the weight, you will tend to collapse and shorten your spine, and you will have to consciously focus to reverse that effect. Similarly, with snatch presses, the visualization involves pressing your body under the weight rather than pushing the weight up over your body. Externally and relatively speaking, both amount to the same thing, but your neurological organization to accomplish the task is significantly different.

If you try the exercises, I would start off with only the bar and practice at failing a little bit for safety reasons. It's inevitable that you end up dropping the weight even if you are very careful. Even dropping the bar on your head could be enough to cause serious brain injury. So when you fail, the most important thing is not to bend your arms so that the bar either swings forward or backward relative to the top of your head and neck.

This post has been edited by ChiBelly: 08 April 2009 - 05:52 PM

[Andrew H]

dnotman,

I have a question. You stated that doing the referenced exercises with weights would somehow not develop the "connections" you are looking for in contrast to doing similar movements without weights. I would think the exact opposite is true.

You can imagine or "visualize" anything you like when there is no resistance, and never know if you are correct or not as there is no realistic feedback; add a substantial amount of weight and you will immediately know if you are aligned or "connected" correctly, you would either be injured or unable to lift the weight otherwise.

Your statement "the weight itself makes it easier to compress into your structure evenly, where as body weight alone forces you to find your alignments" is tantamount to saying "you could use weights to be sure you are doing the movement correctly, but I prefer to use no weights and just guess if I'm doing the movement correctly."

If we have two people of equal physical ability at the start, and one of them practices that squatting exercise without weights while the other practices overhead squats using weights and progressive resistance, who do you believe would be able to produce more real power in the movement after a year's training?

[Aksijaha]

Andrew...

Dude.. you gotta relax man

Have you ever had someone press down on your outstretched hand while you look in another direction?
Versus looking at the hand they are pressing down?

Sometimes being able to "visualize" a movement is the primary thing separating competence from incompetence.

There are quite a few things in IMA where throwing the weights on is highly counterproductive.. because the idea is to get a response from another part of the body motivated by a given visualization.. that would be drowned out and untrained if you simply held weight.

Not that weights are a bad thing.. I'm just saying.. this is a neurologically complex landscape of skill sets. Some work well with weight training.. others need relaxed unweighted training to attain skill.. then weights can be added to great effect. Some will never work if you try to use weights to develop the skill (alot of living sensitivity work is like that). It depends on what one is trying to develop... Trying to learn to meditate while squatting simply isn't as effective as squatting, AND then later meditating.

No more than running distance with kettlebells is optimal for marathon runners.

[ChiBelly]

Your statement "the weight itself makes it easier to compress into your structure evenly, where as body weight alone forces you to find your alignments" is tantamount to saying "you could use weights to be sure you are doing the movement correctly, but I prefer to use no weights and just guess if I'm doing the movement correctly."

Here's an example of a Kettlebell pistol:



Notice how he actually uses the kettlebell to counterbalance the movement (wobbling) of his body as he goes through the motion. Similarly, beginning acrobats on the high wire will use a long heavy bar to "root" them to the wire and also counter their momentum when they move too far to one side. Without the "weights," you have less root and nothing external to use to counter improper alignment and motion. I think this is what Dnotman meant about weights making it easier to "compress into your structure." I think it really depends on the particular exercise you are doing. In the snatch, the weight really works against you until you figure out how to align your body correctly.

[macbutch]

I think the importance of mental visualisations is a big topic on its on. Certainly in Taiji people would say that your intent is what initiates qi. Phrased in western terms, mental visualizations and intent causes your body to organize its neurological function towards a particular goal. Even when I do a snatch, my coach tells me that I should imagine myself "reaching up as if I were trying to grab something off a top shelf" rather than "pushing the weight up and locking out my arms." When you visualize the former, what it does is cause your spine to straighten and elongate despite the fact that you have a weight forcing you down. In contrast, if you just focus on forcing up the weight, you will tend to collapse and shorten your spine, and you will have to consciously focus to reverse that effect. Similarly, with snatch presses, the visualization involves pressing your body under the weight rather than pushing the weight up over your body. Externally and relatively speaking, both amount to the same thing, but your neurological organization to accomplish the task is significantly different.

Yeah - I find this fascinating. For the Aunkai stuff, I think that the visualisations actually make it more difficult (I get the feeling that this never changes btw). Not sure if thats your experience with weights?

This kind of thing make me wish I was a neuroscientist or something.

If you try the exercises, I would start off with only the bar and practice at failing a little bit for safety reasons. It's inevitable that you end up dropping the weight even if you are very careful. Even dropping the bar on your head could be enough to cause serious brain injury. So when you fail, the most important thing is not to bend your arms so that the bar either swings forward or backward relative to the top of your head and neck.

I did a few of the overhead squats - not the drop squats for now - it's an interesting exercise indeed. I didn't drop the weight (yet) but you don't want to let your mind wander too much I notice.... Some interesting things:

- being able to do this with 50kg would be seriously beneficial that much is really clear (and I'm not going there just now...)
- I think I'm cheating a bit - the weight is light enough that I can cheat a little without dropping it. I'm not going to increase the weight until I'm a bit more confident that I have it right (for obvious reasons).
- To compare the two exercises - there are definite similarities. It feels, to me, a bit like the overhead squat trains some parts of what the tenchijin does but seems to obscure other parts. I'm not sure how to explain that more clearly...


For now, as it is, I find the tenchijin more difficult still (heart rate jumps more doing tenchijin than the overhead squats) but as I said I think I'm still cheating a bit on the overhead squats so that might be part of it (it's a *really* nice exercise). This is all very unscientific, of course, just my experiences playing with the two exercises.

[dnotman]

dnotman,

I have a question. You stated that doing the referenced exercises with weights would somehow not develop the "connections" you are looking for in contrast to doing similar movements without weights. I would think the exact opposite is true.

You can imagine or "visualize" anything you like when there is no resistance, and never know if you are correct or not as there is no realistic feedback; add a substantial amount of weight and you will immediately know if you are aligned or "connected" correctly, you would either be injured or unable to lift the weight otherwise.

Your statement "the weight itself makes it easier to compress into your structure evenly, where as body weight alone forces you to find your alignments" is tantamount to saying "you could use weights to be sure you are doing the movement correctly, but I prefer to use no weights and just guess if I'm doing the movement correctly."

If we have two people of equal physical ability at the start, and one of them practices that squatting exercise without weights while the other practices overhead squats using weights and progressive resistance, who do you believe would be able to produce more real power in the movement after a year's training?

I never mentioned visualization (not against it, but not what i am talking about) you don't guess you are doing the movement correctly, you learn to feel and because you have a clear idea of what you are trying to do with the body, you begin to understand wether or not you are doing it because your feeling awareness allows you to understand where and when you break connection if and when you do.....correct alignments are so difficult to get period, weights are not neccessary.....also for the exercise in question, there is a degree of opposition and separation between teh lower and upper that you are looking to clarify and strengthen and this is not helped by weights, in fact i think it would be almost impossible to discern among all the nuerological noise that the load of the weights would create.....if you are still asking wether or not you can become very powerful through ima training and how it is different from weights you should get out more and feel some of the superlative ima players that are out there doing workshops it makes it pretty clear.....having met and felt Ark I can say that his power is very impressive and his training methodology solid and well worth investing time in.....however it is not unique to his work it is in xylhq and bagua and tai chi and hsing yi if these arts are properly understood and taught.