[kwanb]

I had some discussions with a yoga friend of mine over the weekend regarding health and I came up with the following metaphor. I have posted it on my blog and I wanted to throw it out there for people to comment and critique, so I can refine my thinking. Let me know what you think.

My belief is that there are several levels of health, and involves more than just not being sick. In my previous post I had mentioned that asanas in yoga were not necessarily a good way to train Qi. If we take the simple metaphor of Qi as a form of energy or more accurately, flow of energy within the body then contorting yourself into various shapes and holding them for a short period of time will not help you collect and build energy. What asana is good for is for removing blockages from the body.

Level 1: If we liken the body to a house, asana is the basic work of cleaning and maintaining the house, making sure any moving parts are working properly, removing blockages where someone left their garbage (removing tightness in the body and detoxification), cleaning out the pipes in the house (opening energetic channels). But I believe that yoga poses are simply not held long enough, nor in some schools of hatha yoga enough emphasis on proper breathing, and most schools push the students to go to the extreme of the pose where their breathing is not free, to train Qi.

Level 2: Taking the above as basic maintenance the next level should be increasing the flow and quality of energy in the body. This I liken to making sure your domestic help and security are well trained and in good condition. In a body that has clear channels these staff can reach the areas where help is needed quickly, without having to route around obstacles and make detours. So they can either apprehend intruders or fix cracks in the wall quickly and are constantly supplied to do so. This can be achieved by basic pranayama and light Qigong (the kind you see in the park). Breathing is the simplest way to harmonize your energy with the energy of heaven and earth, and in my view, when a wave comes into contact with another wave of the same frequency, the waves reinforce each other - the amplitude increases. This is the same with positive energy.

Level 3: The next level is to start work on improving the structure of the house. Instead of being content with the house that the developer sold you, you make home improvements that can withstand not only the occasional rainstorm, but the black swan events. Make sure your house has a strong foundation with steel beams to withstand a category 7 earthquake (such as a carcrash). This is where some of the martial arts training comes in. In internal martial arts there are neigong exercises which lengthen and strengthen the tendons and fascia. There are also zhan zhuang exercises to build the dantian (your own sub station) and also improve the alignment and integration of the body. There should also be changes at a cellular level (epigenetics). Making more efficient use of your movements will prevent the parts from wearing out faster.

Level 4: This is the level where it starts to move beyond health and into perhaps spiritual development. I won't comment too much on the spiritual aspect in this post but this is where the deeper aspects of pranayama, qigong and meditation come into play. I guess the metaphor becomes similar to setting up an electric fence and state of the art security system so intruders are apprehended even before they penetrate the body. There may be other effects such as an improvement to the feng shui and aesthetics of the house such that it improves the property values of the area around you - (healing qi and aura), and you may at his point have installed your own solar panels and renewable energy (high level yogis and taoists can reputedly subsist without food and take their energy from breathing).

This post has been edited by kwanb: 03 February 2010 - 07:18 AM

[Aksijaha]

I held off on replying to this to see what sort of response it got. My thoughts on this are a bit odd and might be prejudicial in a way.

When I started teaching it was my intent to just teach external. I was in a very external environment (an MMA gym) at the time. It seemed appropriate to "go with the flow" and only teach things that synced well with the environment (mostly weapons and blade defense).

The universe had other ideas. Some of the very first students I attracted were people who had profound physical issues. The kicker was the common thread in their problems. All of the "real serious" cases were people with alot of exposure to esoteric practices (various kinds of paganism and magick) and they had virtually no physical practice component to their mix.

Like you I pretty much take it as axiomatic and fundamental that before one does all the "weird/occult/bizarre/complicated/arcane" type qi gong/yogic practice, before meddling in matters arguably best left alone, you really have to have a good strong healthy vessel for the work.

My qi gong teachers always emphasized doing alot of basics for health and general vitality. Lots of very simple stuff. Don't think so much, don't do crazy visualizations. Get the health and vitality benefits solidly in order before mucking with trying to effect anything serious inside yourself, much less outside.

Unfortunately alot of people get involved in new-age/pagan stuff and start trying to do stuff outside themselves. While this may or may not be possible (Depending on one's worldview) it's really not wise to try without having things in order in your health and energetic physiology.

To extend your house metaphor.. it's like taking out a triple mortgage on the house, and then not having the equity available when the house is underwater.

Good traditional qi gong or yoga suggests you pay off the house FIRST, before spending money on a pool or other luxury improvements.

[kwanb]

Thanks Brian - I am surprised I didn't get more replies, but this is exactly the kind of discussion that I was hoping for. I am trying to clarify my thoughts on this matter as this "House metaphor" kind of came to me and I wanted to see how hard I could push it.

Some background - I used to train ashtanga yoga 4x week, vegetarian diet for about 6 years, and I got really skinny - I am 170cm and I dropped down to about 140 pounds and I felt very light and healthy. However I used to get really cold during the winter months and when I didn't practice I would still get sick (but work was also very stressful then). Then I injured my back from a bad adjustment.

So the last three years coming up to four, I have been really focusing on the bagua and aikido training and I have been feeling a different kind of health - I am now about 151 pounds (most of it muscle - but a bit more fleshiness also - without ever lifting weights so its all from zhanzhuang, tiangan and the practice) - I am still pretty much vegetarian but a little more lax about it I will eat small amounts (less than a pack of playing cards) of fish or meat maybe 3-4 times a week max.

The main difference is that i feel much more rooted and grounded, I have a stronger feeling of Qi -hands are constantly warm, feel the ball between my fingers, and my fingers and flesh feels spongy and expanded like a balloon. I also get sick less often. I also noticed that my wrists have gotten thicker so I think there is some strengthening of the bones and tendons going on also.

So my discussion was with my previous ashtanga teacher who is quite open minded actually, about the different paradigms of health / body type that each practice gives rise to. - the skeletal yogi or the Chinese qigong master - the fleshy individual with a big Qi belly.

Thus I came up with the above theory - I believe I am still working on level 2 and level 3 - although cultivation of the dantian and a stronger qigong practice could possibly be split into another level. And I totally agree with you that we should actually progress level by level and if you jump straight to level 3/4 without having cleansed your energy channels and built up your body then you are asking for trouble. But probably where we differ is whether you think it is OK to do pranayama or light qigong in the beginning - I believe that it is actually OK under the right kind of guidance - some of the "old man" taichi in the park isn't going to give you high blood pressure but isn't going to build up a raging river of qi either, but there are definite benefits.

I also believe you shouldnt mess with the spirit world unless you have a teacher who knows what they are doing.

This post has been edited by kwanb: 08 February 2010 - 02:35 AM

[BaguaGong]

The house metaphor confuses me.
Qigong was always explained very simply to me.

I'm not very familiar with yoga, but isn't qigong also a form of "contorting yourself into various shapes", or more accurately "stretches"? Probably more similar to static posture qigong than moving qigong.

I tend to think the body types of different masters is more related to their diets. While their organs may be very healthy, that may not necessarily counteract the effects of different diets.

[Aksijaha]

KwanB,
For reference when I talk about people with "serious physical issues"... I'm talking about significant levels of weakness, propensity for inflammation upon minor bodily insult, low pain tolerance, extremely poor flexibility etc. In some cases this has also included incredibly poor balance, inability to hold positions for 90 sec at a time etc. Not being able to do more than 10 reps of an exercise under maximal exertion (and I'm talking about simple arm circles type exercise).
I don't know how much you deal with dian xue or external/wei qi, and honestly when I say this out loud it seems kinda woo-woo.
Anyway.. when you get close to people who have some sort of self-destructive qi/energy practice for me it's merely a matter of mentally "moving towards them" (again this is at arms reach or closer) and you can feel the places you should hit to rip and destroy, gunting and rend. The more accomplished someone is at good healthy practice the less you feel any "holes". These students who have alot of "exotic" practices (complicated visualizations, ego-driven beliefs in their ability to work at a distance, ego-focused belief in their magickal/mystical giftedness, lack of rudimentary basics in their qi/energy/prana/meditation) AND lack the physical side feel like they are simply full of holes. Like anyone with a shred of awareness could just wade in and smash them in conjunction with some sort of physical attack. A feeling of fullness, of even solid presence (in combination with how good someone's gungfu seems) is how I intuit a genuine level of accomplishment.
So when I talk about damaged folks like.. I'm talking about people who are way more psychically and physically "sick" than almost anyone who does good yoga or qi gong. Even "old people tai chi" done regularly yields far more health and vitality than the kinds of soul-sickness I'm seeing in the occult community.
When you talk about your health state.. you are discussing moving from a level 1 or 2 to a 4. These people are at -2...trying to get to 0.
Consider the idea that there may be people who are WAY BELOW what you are calling "about to start on level one".

[kwanb]

Thanks - I hadn't realized that you had meant at that level... fortunately or unfortunately, I don't actually run into individuals like that very often at practice. Maybe its a difference in culture but there is a bit of cultural chauvinism here (a lot of the young Chinese look down at martial arts as being uncool, and they would rather be doing kickboxing or being in the gym or yoga) so people with health issues like you mentioned would probably not be looking to practice bagua or aikido. There is probably more in the tai chi community. The one example that Sifu teaches is a middle aged lady who only comes to walk the circle (doesn't do any thing fancy) - just walking for 40 mins and it has helped her health immensely.

Although I can completely understand what you mean. Not to get all "woo-woo", I do believe that there are definitely certain occult forces out there that we do not understand, and I am quite sensitive to positive and negative energy (like temples and statues - which are the real deal and what are just a piece of rock etc.) - whether this comes from the qigong practice or whatever I don't know - but I try to stay away.

And I don't believe it is just to do with occult practices, there are some individuals who are just deficient, and this may be for emotional or psychological reasons (abuse?) and this shows up in the way they carry themselves - a self destructive streak or something. Remember the thin geeky guy in school that looks like he is being bullied and taken advantage of by everyone?

OK to move on from this aspect of the topic - dian xue - Gao Bagua has dian xue /dim mak, my Sifu mentioned it last year and was thinking of learning it this year.

This post has been edited by kwanb: 12 February 2010 - 08:07 AM

[Aksijaha]

Although I can completely understand what you mean. Not to get all "woo-woo", I do believe that there are definitely certain occult forces out there that we do not understand, and I am quite sensitive to positive and negative energy (like temples and statues - which are the real deal and what are just a piece of rock etc.) - whether this comes from the qigong practice or whatever I don't know - but I try to stay away.

Well my *provisional* stance is what I call "onotological conservatism".. i.e. Occam's razor. Do not unnecessarily multiply entities.
Since I am know from personal experience that good qigong can have positive effects on the health and mind, it stands to reason that really horrible, incomplete stupid "qigong" can assist one in a negative way. I figure it's just mis-use of one's body-mind-energy and work from that point.
I have met people that fit the description TCM gives of a "shen disturbance" or "ghost possession".. but I don't train these people. For one they don't want anything to do with me and practice that might help them, and two I'm not having them around. They need to go to the therapist/healer/priest/whatever to get that worked on. I do martial arts. They may be a little "woo-woo" sometimes but I know where my limits of confidence begin and end.

OK to stay move on from this aspect of the topic - dian xue - Gao Bagua has dian xue /dim mak, my Sifu mentioned it last year and was thinking of learning it this year.

Well this is an interesting subject in it's own right I think. My approach to it is a bit odd. My first teacher taught alot of basic qi gong. The "Qi feeling" was big in his method. He encouraged a phenomenological approach rather than a top-down theoretical approach. Just feel what's there. Don't try to "do" things with it.
Later on I learned "spotting" or "point striking".. but in the FMA arts. The "gunting" or "destruction" is really big there. Again my teacher took the view that "there are lots of pain points, practice alot and learn to find them!". Very little theory. Learn by getting it done to you. Then go do unto others (who are also in an appropriate training environment for that purpose I'd hasten to add).
It was only later that I did some reading and found out that without exception all the "gunting points" I'd been taught and figured out myself pretty much are either acupoints or lie along the channels and jingluo.
At my level of understanding the whole "strike this point to achieve X effect" isn't the point. I don't know about this, nor do I think I'm anywhere near good enough to get that fancy. It's more like "hit'em hard and hit the vulnerabilities to destroy them". Whatever effect I get is just whatever I get.
The whole Erle Montague level of clinical point striking or the Medical Qi Gong way of directed energy to points for some therapeutic effect is way above my paygrade.
They are just "targets" to me. And it's not from a book, you just find the holes and spots "by feeling".
I have no idea if this is a "traditional" way (from a CIMA point of view) of working dian xue. It just happened by accident while learning to fight well.