[Natural Motion Systems]

“karate ni sente nashi.”Typically translated as,“There is no first attack in (Martial Arts) "

Greetings and Salutations,

Appreciation to the forum and Martial arts enthusiast.

for providing a medium of Research and Resource for the Martial and
Health Sciences.

,the opportunity to share /service information .In the research depth
understanding of the Martial and Health sciences.

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N M S

Shen Gung


EOE

Su Dong Chen

http://www.essenceofevolution.com/

http://www.essenceof...englishmenu.htm



Karate ni Sente Nashi:

“karate ni sente nashi.”

Typically translated as,

“There is no first attack in (Martial Arts) "


Gichin Funakoshi. - this principle,

the second of his Niju Kun (“Twenty Precepts”),


Shoshin Nagamine,

“This phrase ,embodies the essence of Okinawan Martial Arts) "


Masatoshi Nakayama,

these words that fully express the spirit of karate-do” (Martial Arts) !

the significance of the sente nashi principle,

one can only assume that the principle represents a way of thinking that
is --

or at least should be -- profoundly important for those who consider
them+selves to be serious practitioners of the art of

(Martial Arts) !

at its most basic level,

the maxim at least clearly proscribes the use of any “first strikes” on
the part of (Martial Arts) !


Or does it?

[Natural Motion Systems]

NMS and EOE Perspective:

What is Defense?
Having clarified the essential distinction between Martial Arts and competition fighting,

Because the goal of competing is to "win,"
the de facto emphasis of competition fighting is attack.
Thus it is clear that offense.

Martial Arts asks “How to survive and overcome?”

Martial Arts must have Defense.

we may examine defense.

Understanding of defense begins with an understanding of the technical principle and process of physical contact.

Essence and Evolution of Contact:

Principle = Point , -Line , X Cross , @Spiral
Universal Symbol • – X @

Defense: "Fángyù" ( 防禦 )
The majority of Martial Arts systems in America today have their roots in Asia; many of the arts of Asia trace their origins to China. The word for "defense" in Mandarin Chinese is "fángyù," (pronounced "bōgyō" in Japanese) and is composed of two distinct characters. An examination of the meaning of these characters will serve to illustrate fundamental Martial Arts thought:

Fáng - 防 - To prevent/cope
Yù - 禦 - To manage/control

EOE: Essence of Defense
Prevention and coping in response to physical attack are accomplished by establishing contact via intersecting lines and planes. Control is achieved by spiral formation.
Thus the technique and aesthetic expressions of Martial Arts exhibit crossing and spiral formations.
Essence and Evolution of Contact and Martial Arts:

Martial Arts Contact
Striking

Defense

Throwing and Controlling

The unification of offense and defense is the essential element of Martial Arts thought, which seeks to "strike without being struck" and "throw without being thrown." EOE seeks consistent technical application and tactical deployment based on principle.

EOE: Crossing Defense Method ( X @ )
Crossing Defense Method is the body of Martial Arts technique that unifies offense and defense. Crossing Method has two aspects:
1.) Crossing Contact Method ( X )
Crossing Contact Method is a technical means of unifying defense and offense by intersecting point and line attacks.
This method initiates contact in order to cope with attack.

2.) Crossed Connection Method ( @ )
The evolution of Crossing technique results in spiral technique of throwing and joint-locking. Crossed Connection Method is a technical means of unifying defense and offense once connection is established, to manage and apply spiral technique.

EOE Essence of Crossing.

[Natural Motion Systems]

bugeidan武藝団伊丹会場練習　蘇東成老師の武術講習模様



http://www.youtube.c...h?v=6jVTBAKEagw

hand method workshop montage

[Aksijaha]

Natural Motion Systems, on 11 June 2010 - 02:50 PM, said:

Karate ni Sente Nashi:

“karate ni sente nashi.”

Typically translated as,

“There is no first attack in (Martial Arts) "


Gichin Funakoshi. - this principle,

the second of his Niju Kun (“Twenty Precepts”),


Shoshin Nagamine,

“This phrase ,embodies the essence of Okinawan Martial Arts) "


Masatoshi Nakayama,

these words that fully express the spirit of karate-do” (Martial Arts) !

the significance of the sente nashi principle,

one can only assume that the principle represents a way of thinking that
is --

or at least should be -- profoundly important for those who consider
them+selves to be serious practitioners of the art of

(Martial Arts) !

at its most basic level,

the maxim at least clearly proscribes the use of any “first strikes” on
the part of (Martial Arts) !


Or does it?

Shen Gung,
The maxim seems to either
1.) Be non-sense (crazy wisdom)
or
2.) Proscribe the use of first strikes.


Either way it probably has a deeper "Zen" type meaning but I think the conservative position would be
"What relevance does the opinion of an Okinawan martial arts practioner (however skilled) have to do with Chinese Internal martial arts?".

If one is looking at the surface level (there is no first attack in martial arts) then it's just ridiculous.
And I'm perfectly prepared to whack someone across the face and say "see.. THERE is the first attack".

If it's meant to get people thinking.. like "well in a sense there is no FIRST attack because the chain of causation for a fight extends so far back that a root cause is imponderable".. well that's ok I guess.

But at fifth and last... every tradition has it's "koans" or "proverbs". This is a JMA proverb. Doesn't mean it applies to CMA whatsoever.

[RorKF]

Gichin Funakoshi was a scholar and a poet, so his teachings tend to be very, shall we say, poetic? I feel that the statement certainly speaks to the zen influence on many Japanese martial arts. Even though karate is Okinawan, funakoshi was the man responsible for popularizing it in Japan.

When I was learning Goju Ryu I learned about something called the 'three levels of attack' or something to that effect (i'm probably calling it the wrong thing). Anyway, it was.....

1)Go No Sen
2)Sen No Sen
3)Sen
I speak VERY little japanese, but i believe it means something like: 1) Block the Attack, 2) Attack the Attack and 3) Attack

the first one it obvious its it meaning. If some one punches at you, block or move or both, then counter. The second one means interception, sort of like blocking the incoming attack with the counter attack, or countering faster than the opponent is attacking. the third one is the the one which is most relevant to this conversation. Attack. The way I was taught, this means attacking the opponents intention to attack. In other words, in his mind, your opponent is already fighting you. Nip that off at the bud. Maybe in the sense that the fight begins on a psychological level before a physical level, there is in fact as first punch thrown, but at that point the fight has already begun, hence this first punch not actually being first.

I guess the lesson is if some mean looking dude is coming toward you and you're sure he's got nothing but bad intentions for you.... Sen.

[Natural Motion Systems]

Greetings and Salutations,

to the forum and Martial arts enthusiast.
the opportunity to share /service information .In the research depth
understanding of the Martial and Health sciences.

with respect and Honor.

www.naturalmotionsystems.com

naturalmotionsystems@yahoo.com

N M S



how would you do a first attack ?

and why ?

[Aksijaha]

Natural Motion Systems, on 12 June 2010 - 03:18 PM, said:

how would you do a first attack ?

and why ?

Well I do Gao from the Wu Mengxia line. So chances are my first attack is going to be "asking hand". This is a up/yang-facing palm hitting with the back of the hand to the face or head. This "asks" a question.. the question it asks is "Will you counter this or not?". If he does not counter I just got him in the face on a line that is (at least at that moment) open. So I keep hitting him on that general line (changing hands as I go forward) until he goes down or starts countering.

If he counters initially or at some point after.. then asking hand "goes out like a steel file and retracts like a hook on a pole". My asking hand, if countered, has sufficient chui/filing to force him to pressure me back (or else my asking hand will file right through his weak structure and hit him again). When I feel his pressure against me, asking hand turns over and "becomes Zhua/grabbing" (this is similar to Zuan Quan's turning over and pulling down). I take his pressure, grab onto it, and pull myself into his center/head. Scream and leap!

As to "why".. I always want to be the one attacking first. Defense is very hard against a skilled opponent who has the drop on you. Who knows what he knows or has in his pockets? Hit him first, hit him hard, finish the fight and run run away.

Just my .02$. YMMV.

[RorKF]

Ditto what Brian said.

[Natural Motion Systems]

Greetings and Salutations,
Appreciation to the Martial arts enthusiast.
the opportunity to share /service information .
based on our understanding at this time point in time ,
with respect and Honor.
www.naturalmotionsystems.com
naturalmotionsystems@yahoo.com
N M S

“karate ni sente nashi.” Typically translated as
“There is no first attack in (Martial Arts) "

If you are doing the physical attack. (offensive) ,
then you are the aggressor.

If you are the aggressor -physical attacker you are not a martial artist ,
you are an attacker aggressor concern only with the physical attack.

Self-Defense is concerned with prevention of physical attack.

Martial Arts asks “How to survive and overcome?”

Martial Arts must have Defense.

Martial arts must examine defense.

To be attacked sets the “initial conditions” or “zero point” of self-defense.

0) Attacking – To be Attacked – To act with the intent to injure.

Physical attack occurs in one of three forms:

1) Striking – To be Struck –

2) Throwing – To be Thrown –

3) Controlling – To be Controlled –

Self-Defense is concerned with prevention of physical attack.
?How to cope with attack?

“There is no first attack in (Martial Arts) "ni sente nashi.”

What is Defense?
Having clarified the essential distinction between Martial Arts and fighting,

Because the goal of fighting is to "win,"
the de facto emphasis of fighting is attack.
Thus it is clear that offense.

Martial Arts asks “How to survive and overcome?”

Martial Arts must have Defense.

we may examine defense.

Understanding of defense begins with an understanding of the technical principle and process of physical contact.

Essence and Evolution of Contact:

Principle = Point , -Line , X Cross , @Spiral
Universal Symbol • – X @

Defense: "Fángyù" ( 防禦 )
The majority of Martial Arts systems in America today have their roots in Asia; many of the arts of Asia trace their origins to China. The word for "defense" in Mandarin Chinese is "fángyù," (pronounced "bōgyō" in Japanese) and is composed of two distinct characters. An examination of the meaning of these characters will serve to illustrate fundamental Martial Arts thought:

Fáng - 防 - To prevent/cope
Yù - 禦 - To manage/control

Essence of Defense
Prevention and coping in response to physical attack
accomplished by establishing contact via intersecting lines
and planes.
Control is achieved by spiral formation.
Thus the technique and aesthetic expressions of Martial Arts exhibit crossing and spiral formations.
Essence and Evolution of Contact and Martial Arts:

EOE
www.essenceofevolution.com
Master Su Dong chen

[Aksijaha]

I'm sorry Shen, but I still fail to see how that relates to the statement "There is no first attack".

Obviously there is a first attack, or there is no fight or assault.

[Natural Motion Systems]

Aksijaha, on 16 June 2010 - 06:23 PM, said:

I'm sorry Shen, but I still fail to see how that relates to the statement "There is no first attack".

Obviously there is a first attack, or there is no fight or assault.

Greetings and Salutations,
Appreciation to the forum and Martial arts.
a medium of Research and Resource for the Martial Sciences.
In the research of depth understanding of the Martial Sciences.
to share/service an alternative Perspective,based on our understanding at this time point in time ,
with respect and Honor.

www.naturalmotionsystems.com
naturalmotionsystems@yahoo.com
N M S


“ attack in (Martial Arts) "ni sente nashi.”

the significance of the sente nashi principle,

the principle represents a way of thinking that is --

-- profoundly important for those who consider themselves to be serious practitioners of the art of (Martial Arts) !


Maybe this Important Principle that ,we should think about
is a way of thinking
a Principal not techniques .

May be this principle that should be considerred serriously is defense
not attack (offense).

Maybe: Martial Arts asks “How to survive and overcome”

to cope with attack = defense system?

Martial Arts must have Defense and must examine defense.

what is dense?
To prevent/cope
To manage/control
- to be struck
– To be Thrown –
– To be Controlled –

Understanding of defense begins with an understanding of the technical principle and process of physical contact.

Essence and Evolution of Contact:

Principle = Point , -Line , X Cross , @Spiral
Universal Symbol • – X @

Defense: "Fángyù" ( 防禦 )
The word for "defense"
in Mandarin Chinese is "fángyù," (pronounced "bōgyō" in Japanese) and is composed of two distinct characters. An examination of the meaning of these characters will serve to illustrate fundamental Martial Arts thought:

Fáng - 防 - To prevent/cope
Yù - 禦 - To manage/control

Essence of Defense
Prevention and coping in response to physical attack
accomplished by establishing contact via
intersecting lines
and planes.
Control is achieved by spiral formation.
Thus the technique and aesthetic expressions of Martial Arts exhibit crossing and spiral formations.
Essence and Evolution of Contact and Martial Arts:

EOE
www.essenceofevolution.com
Master Su Dong chen

[Natural Motion Systems]

Natural Motion Systems, on 17 June 2010 - 01:23 PM, said:

Greetings and Salutations,
Appreciation to the forum and Martial arts.
a medium of Research and Resource for the Martial Sciences.
In the research of depth understanding of the Martial Sciences.
to share/service an alternative Perspective,based on our understanding at this time point in time ,
with respect and Honor.

www.naturalmotionsystems.com
naturalmotionsystems@yahoo.com
N M S


“ attack in (Martial Arts) "ni sente nashi.”

the significance of the sente nashi principle,

the principle represents a way of thinking that is --

-- profoundly important for those who consider themselves to be serious practitioners of the art of (Martial Arts) !


Maybe this Important Principle that ,we should think about
is a way of thinking
a Principal not techniques .

May be this principle that should be considerred serriously is defense
not attack (offense).

Maybe: Martial Arts asks “How to survive and overcome”

to cope with attack = defense system?

Martial Arts must have Defense and must examine defense.

what is dense?
To prevent/cope
To manage/control
- to be struck
– To be Thrown –
– To be Controlled –

Understanding of defense begins with an understanding of the technical principle and process of physical contact.

Essence and Evolution of Contact:

Principle = Point , -Line , X Cross , @Spiral
Universal Symbol • – X @

Defense: "Fángyù" ( 防禦 )
The word for "defense"
in Mandarin Chinese is "fángyù," (pronounced "bōgyō" in Japanese) and is composed of two distinct characters. An examination of the meaning of these characters will serve to illustrate fundamental Martial Arts thought:

Fáng - 防 - To prevent/cope
Yù - 禦 - To manage/control

Essence of Defense
Prevention and coping in response to physical attack
accomplished by establishing contact via
intersecting lines
and planes.
Control is achieved by spiral formation.
Thus the technique and aesthetic expressions of Martial Arts exhibit crossing and spiral formations.
Essence and Evolution of Contact and Martial Arts:

EOE
www.essenceofevolution.com
Master Su Dong chen

International Workshop / Seminar in Miami Florida -USA
(EOE )– Master Su Dong Chen

First week in October 2010

Master Su Dong Chen
http://www.essenceofevolution.com/

Pre-registration:
Please contact :Elio Tarrago
www.naturalmotionsystems.com
786-344-6973

What are the Principle and Tactical Thought present in all the (Martial
Sciences) Self-Defense?
Understanding of principle,

What is the Essence and Evolution of Contact?
1.) One-Dimensional point & line (striking technique)
2.) Two-Dimensional cross & plane (control and crossing technique )
3.) Three-Dimensional spiral crossed (Throwing and Grappling technique)
What is a Direct (Attack Method)?
What is a Indirect (Capture Method)?
What is a (Grappling Method)?
Through practice rooted in principle, is a comprehensive, consistent combative methodology, encompassing the essence of defense, striking, and throwing/controlling.
Regardless of System, Style, or school we ask (research),
understand and trained (practice) the Unifying and Universal Elements -
make us better and take our knowledge and training to the next level!

International Workshop / Seminar in Miami Florida -USA
First week in October 2010 Mater Su Dong Chen
Pre-registration: Please contact
Elio H tarrago
natruralmotionsystems@tyahoo,com

This post has been edited by Natural Motion Systems: 29 June 2010 - 01:14 PM